Christ's Life Story, or was it? You Decide.
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I know this is going to be a controversial subject, and I maintain an open mind on it myself at this point in time, but I have to question why it is that so many other religious icons and Gods, apparently have virtually the same life story as Christ, in spite of their stories frequently pre-dating Christianity by many centuries.
In this hub I will simply aim to put my research down so far, and ask you for feedback as to how this can be explained if Christ's story as told in the Bible is the only true version? If you believe that Christ's life story isn't true, then what are your feelings as to how these multiple stories attributed to different Gods or Icons came about?
Your feedback, comments and opinions will be greatly appreciated at the end of this hub, but please only comment if you have read the whole hub, rather than simply scrolling down to the bottom in order to voice an opinion.
Thank you.
Horus
Horus
First let us go to 'Horus' the Egyptian God who represented the ultimate in goodness and purity,
" I am the LORD thy God from the Land of Egypt and thou shalt know no God but me: for there is no Saviour beside me" Hosea 13:4, King James version.
Horus (represented by a symbol of the eye of a falcon, the shape of a Sparrow hawk or the body of a man or lion with a hawk's head), was worshipped thousands of years before the first century CE , the time Jesus was ministering in Palestine.
The legends of Horus had been in circulation for centuries before Christ's birth (circa 4 to 7 BCE).
Author theologian Tom Harpur studied several well known Authors who had written about the Ancient Egyptians and their religious beliefs, and put the information together into a book called 'Pagan Christ'. He made the point that all of the essential ideas in both Christianity and Judaism came mostly from the Egyptian religion.
"[Author Gerald] Massey discovered nearly two hundred instances of immediate correspondence between the mythical Egyptian material and the allegedly historical Christian writings about Jesus. Horus indeed was the archetypal Pagan Christ."
Examples of where life events between Horus and Jesus matched.
1) Both were conceived from a Virgin.
2) Horus was the only begotten Son of the God Osiris and Jesus was the only Son of God ( Yehovah).
3) The Foster Father of Horus was Seb (Jo-Seph), and the Foster Father of Jesus was Joseph.
4) Both Foster Fathers were of Royal descent.
5) Both Horus and Jesus were born in a cave or stable.
6) Annunciation, in both cases was by an angel to the respective Mothers.
7) In both cases the birth was heralded by a star.
8) Birth date, Ancient Egyptians would parade a baby in a manger through the streets typically on Winter solstice (Dec 21st). Jesus birthday celebrations were arranged to coincide with the birth date of Mithra, Dionysis and Sol Invictus (Dec 25th).
9) In both cases the birth announcement was made by angels.
10) In each case the witnesses were shepherds.
11) The later witnesses to the birth were three solar deities in the case of Horus, and three wise men in the case of Jesus.
12) Death threats were made to Horus by Herut, and to Jesus by Herod.
13) Each Mother was warned to hide their infant by a deity.
14) Each had to attend a special ritual at the age of 12 to mark their Rite of Passage.
15) Neither has any history between the ages of 12 and 30.
16) Both were baptised in rivers.
17) Both their baptisers were ultimately beheaded.
18) Both were taken from a desert and up a mountain and tempted by Satan, and both resisted the temptation.
19) Both walked on water, healed the sick,restored sight to the blind and calmed the sea.
20) Horus raised Osiris from the grave and Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave.
21) Location where the resurrection miracle occurred:
Horus: Anu, an Egyptian city where the rites of the death, burial and resurrection of Horus were enacted annually.
Jesus: Hebrews added their prefix for house ('beth") to "Anu" to produce "Beth-Anu" or the "House of Anu." Since "u" and "y" were interchangeable in antiquity, "Bethanu" became "Bethany," the location mentioned in John 11.
22) Origin of Lazarus' name in the Gospel of John: Asar was an alternative name for Osirus, Horus' father, who Horus raised from the dead. He was referred to as "the Asar," as a sign of respect. Translated into Hebrew, this is "El-Asar." The Romans added the prefix "us" to indicate a male name, producing "Elasarus." Over time, the "E" was dropped and "s" became "z," producing "Lazarus."
23) Both transfigured on a mountain.
24) Both held a sermon on the mount.
25) Both died by crucifixion
26) Both died accompanied by two thieves.
27) Both were buried in a tomb.
28) Both were resurrected after 3 days or 30-38 hours.
29) Both resurrections were announced by women.
30) Future, both reign for 1000 years in the Millennium.
The Eye of Horus
Both have many characteristics in common. Each was regarded as a mythical character, the Saviour of humanity and are frequently pictured in the arms of their Virgin Mothers.
Each are referred to as 'the anointed one', the good Shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word and the fisher.
Both are associated with symbols such as the Shepherd's Crook, the vine, the fish and the beetle.
Characteristics.
Criteria for salvation at the place of judgement:
Horus: "I have given bread to the hungry man and water to the thirsty man and clothing to the naked person and a boat to the shipwrecked mariner."
Jesus: "For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me..." Matthew 25:35-36 (KJV).
*****
"I am" statements
Horus: "I am Horus in glory...I am the Lord of Light...I am the victorious one...I am the heir of endless time...I, even I, am he that knoweth the paths of heaven."
"I am Horus, the Prince of Eternity"
"I am Horus who stepeth onward through eternity...Eternity and everlastingness is my name."
"I am the possessor of bread in Anu. I have bread in heaven with Ra."
Jesus: "I am the light of the world....I am the way, the truth and the life."
"Before Abraham was, I am"
"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today and forever."
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven."
(From the Gospel of John)
Osiris-Dionysis
As in history these two Gods were frequently referred to by the composite name Osiris-Dionysis I shall refer to them by this for the purpose of this hub.
The following stories occur not only in the Gospels, but also in the myths of many of the God-Men.
Again, all of the Pagan myths had been circulating for many centuries before Jesus birth.
The Life Events Shared by Jesus and Osiris-Dionysis.
Conception:
In both cases they were the Son of God and were born of a virgin human Mother.
Birth:
Both were born in a cave or cowshed, (an early Christian belief was that the manger was placed in a cave), and both births were heralded by a star.
Ministry:
Both performed the miracle of converting water into wine at a marriage ceremony.
Neither could perform miracles in their home town.
Their followers were all 'born again' after baptism by water.
Both rode triumphantly into the city on a donkey whilst onlookers waved palm leaves.
Both had 12 disciples
Both were accused of licentious behaviour.
Execution and Resurrection:
Both were killed around the Vernal Equinox (about Mar 21st).
Both died as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.
Both were hung on a tree, stake or cross.
Both descended into Hell, and after three days returned to life.
The caves where they laid were each visited by three female followers.
Both later ascended into Heaven.
Titles in Common:
Saviour of the World
Son of God.
Beliefs:
Both were 'God made man' and equal to the Father.
Both will return in the final days.
Both will judge the Human race at that time.
The sacrificial death of both Jesus and Osiris-Dionysis removed original sin and reunited the believers with God.
Mithra (Mithras)
Mithra (Mithras)
The Sun God, and worshipped throughout the Roman Empire by soldiers, slaves and noblemen alike, although women were forbidden to join this religion.
Legend said that Mithra was born from a rock within a cave and his birth was witnessed by a group of shepherds.Temples to Mithra have been found Rudchester, Housesteads and Carrawburgh.
Each day of the week was attributed to a planet, and the day associated with the Sun was held to be very holy. Seasonal holy days included the equinoxes and 25th December.
Because it was so widespread the worship of Mithra held a very real threat to Christianity, so it is not surprising that the Christians adopted many of the Mithra religion's aspects, such as making Sunday a holy day and treating December the 25th as a special day.
A leading Proponent of the 'Pagan copycat' view is Acharya S, who, in her magnum opus The Christ Conspiracy(118-120), lays out over a dozen things that Jesus supposedly has in common with Mithras and, by extension, Christianity allegedly borrowed to create the Jesus character; some of these points she now defends further in a work titled Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled.
These points are:
Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds.
He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
He had 12 companions or disciples.
Mithra's followers were promised immortality.
He performed miracles.
As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.
His resurrection was celebrated every year.
He was called "the Good Shepherd" and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
He was considered the "Way, the Truth and the Light," and the "Logos," "Redeemer," "Savior" and "Messiah."
His sacred day was Sunday, the "Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
Mithra had his principal festival of what was later to become Easter.
His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper," at which Mithra said, "He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."
His annual sacrifice is the passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement or pledge of moral and physical regeneration.
Shmuel Golding is quoted as saying that 1 Cor. 10:4 is "identical words to those found in the Mithraic scriptures, except that the name Mithra is used instead of Christ."
The Catholic Encyclopedia is quoted as saying that Mithraic services were conduced by "fathers" and that the "chief of the fathers, a sort of pope, who always lived at Rome, was called 'Pater Patratus.'"
***
Now to be fair the above points are hotly contested by Christians who claim that these statements were only made about Mithra after the life of Christ. If you wish to makes your own minds up about this I have posted a link below that argues the Christian point of view.
Buddha
The Buddha
Similarities also exist between the story of Buddha's life and Jesus Christ's.
Birth:
The Buddha was of royal descent. Born of the Virgin Maya ("the Queen of Heaven") on December 25th, announced by a star and attended by wise men presenting costly gifts. At his birth Brahma angels sang hymns. An aged holy woman beseeched the heavens to bless the child.
"In Buddhism the virgin birth concept occupies a central place and the suggestion of immaculate conception is also made. Buddha's future mother, Mahamaya, refrained form sexual activity and other worldly pleasures during the mid-summer festival and was taken off during a dream to the Himalayas. There she was purified by water to remove every human stain before being placed upon a divine couch ... After the conception, no lustful thought sprang up in the mind of future Buddha's mother ... The meaning usually ascribed to Buddha's birth legend centres on the fact that he chose to be born of a woman so as to become human himself, which would enable him to inspire other humans with the possibility of achieving perfection."
Life:
Buddha taught in temple at age 12 and was able to match the wise religious scholars in their understanding.
He was tempted by Mara, the Evil One, while fasting, but overcame the temptation, putting the Evil One to flight.
He was baptized in water with the Spirit of God present. He gained enlightenment under a tree known as the Bodhi Tree.
He healed the sick; fed 500 from a small basket of cakes; walked on water.
Ananda, Buddha's disciple, asked a woman at a well for a drink of water but she hesitated because she was of too low a caste to serve him.
Buddha's disciple wanted to hear his lord preach so he started to cross a stream - he doubted and started to sink but he built up his faith and continued to walk across the water.
Buddha came to fulfil the law and preached the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness.
He obliged followers to live in poverty and to renounce the world.
In his final years, Buddha was said to have 'crushed a serpent's head' and to have been transfigured on a mount ...'
It was Buddha, not Christ, who first said: 'If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also' (Matthew 5:39).
These words also were attributed to Lao Zi some 500 years before Jesus.
Names:
Good Shepherd; Carpenter; Alpha and Omega; Sin Bearer; Master; Light of the World; Redeemer; Saviour of the World.
Death:
[Note that there are many Buddhist belief systems with very different views of the events of the Buddha's life and death.] Buddha died (on a cross, in some traditions, according to Graves, Kersey, The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviours [online free], quoted here, as atonement for sins of others; . buried but arose again after tomb opened by supernatural powers. Ascended into heaven (Nirvana). Will return in later days to judge the dead.
He suffered for three days in hell, and was resurrected: he ascended to Nirvana.
"And when the Sage entered Nirvana, the earth quivered like a ship struck by a squall, and firebrands fell from the sky. The heavens were lit up by a preternatural fire, which burned without fuel, without smoke, without being fanned by the wind. Fearsome thunderbolts crashed down on the earth, and violent winds raged in the sky. The moon's light waned, and, in spite of a cloudless sky, an uncanny darkness spread everywhere." Translation by Edward Conze, in Conze (ed.), Buddhist Scriptures (Penguin Books, 1959), pp. 62-4
On his burial, Buddha's funeral clothes were said to have 'unrolled themselves, and the lid of his coffin was opened by a superhuman agency, when he ascended bodily into heaven'
Conclusion
As I stated at the start of this hub, I remain open-minded, but also curious as to how these similar stories are possible, and how it can be that all of these Gods or Icons can actually have had most of the same life experiences, unless either:
A. The Christian faith really did adopt the ancient religion's stories to make converting Pagan people to Christianity easier.
B. All of these Gods and Icons are one and the same being, and only the dates they each allegedly existed are are inaccurate.
C. None of the stories are true and are all just ancient Legends that have been passed down through the ages, and are now treated as factual events by Christians who have read and been taught these same tales in the Bible and by the Church over the centuries.
or
D. An answer yet to be determined and one that makes logical sense.
There are many other examples of Gods who share similar life stories or whose lives included similar events to the story of Jesus Christ, far too many to cover all of them here. In case you would like to do your own research into some of the others you could begin with looking at are:
Tammuz: Syria and Babylon.
Krishna: India.
Zarathustra: Asia Minor (possibly modern day Iran).
Lao Zi: China.
Attis: Turkey (Anatolia).
Heracles: Greece (in the Roman Empire Hercules).
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I actually had been researching the subject for the Xmas hubmob, when you and Sixty, hi-jacked me into the Kitchen with Goompy.
No complaints, but a great hub by you!
Misty, Brilliant Hub. This convergence and parallel of various religions and beliefs has been the subject of much research and debate. With claims and counter claims. I, like you, retain an open mind.
Just Rodney, whoops sorry I inadvertently used an idea you were planning to as well. Glad you enjoyed it :)
Sixty, thanks for commenting, glad you enjoyed it and maintain an open mind as I do on the subject. :)
Great stuff and what I have also done in my own way. Though tis is here those who belong to any church will tell you that they are all lies perpetrated by the devil himself. They are VERY lazy people in that Jesus said to test everything and ask and find and they would rather listen to traditions and clergy and uh-hem--Jesus was totally against any of that. The stubbornly will not research anytihng on their own and listen to the very one who they claim to follow and that is Jesus....All they and anyone needs to read is 1 John 4==the whole chapter. I wrote a hub on it yesterday and what it says about LOVE and God and Jeus and all that.
We are to spread LOVE and truth, not lies and controll.-someimes it is hard to stop the preaching---so I better stop now......... ;)
May I post this on one of My groups? http://spiritsoftherisingson.yuku.com/
Like I said, I am to spread truth and light.
really great hub! It looks like God, or whatever you want to call it, has shown Himself to all walks of life throughout world history. Even Jesus said that we can speak against His name, and it will be forgiven, but if we defy the Holy Spirit, it is an eternal sin. I interpret that to mean that the real God isn't name-specific, but can be found by everyone within themselves. The name isn't important.
Really cool!
Thanks to both LG and Maestrowit, I am so glad you found this hub interesting and that you are both open minded on the subject. I very much appreciate your feedback :)
By the way Maestro, I like your theory 'It looks like God, or whatever you want to call it, has shown Himself to all walks of life throughout world history.' and 'I interpret that to mean that the real God isn't name-specific, but can be found by everyone within themselves. The name isn't important.'
Hi Misty What a fantastic hub - incredible the pagan/christian parallel/s - as it said in the catechism when i was a child "Where is God? answer "God is everywhere" cheers
Great hub, and well researched. I applaud your efforts. Well written too; the information flows well and doesn't bog down anywhere and become sloggish, which this kind of information can easily do if the writer is not careful.
Your questions at the conclusion are well conceived too, I think, except that the answer "yes" can actually be applied to all of them as none of them are mutually exclusive.
A) Yes, there is tons of documentation and research (some of which you refer to and link) showing clearly how Christianity conscripted the stories of those they had conquered or would convert to their system and the control so enabled.
B) Yes, all these figures might be the same being, as, prior to writing (and particularly the Codex, which was far superior for citation and quick reference than a scroll and was, therefore, a key technological advantage for the spreading of Christianity which relies heavily on the ability to quote scripture for any circumstance) stories were oral, and those oral traditions date back literally tens of thousands of years. The Christ figure is as generic across global religions as is the "great flood" so it might well be all stemming from one original ancestral faith or even actual figure (I read a theory about how genetic evidence suggests that the species of mankind we have today may be what was left from a time when humanity was reduced down to 30,000 people - a bottle neck of population numbers caused by some great disaster, be it flood or asteriod or disease, so its certainly at least plausible that one set of stories was shared by a group that small and living in one isolated region, and that subsequently fanned out and repeopled the Earth - a familiar story *cough*Noah*cough*).
C) They don't have to be true, as the very nature of "legend" is generally fiction grown of something else that may have been true, therefore, they can be false and yet still be in keeping with part B) above.
D) An answer yet to be determined will most likely only clarify which parts and how much of the other questions are appropriate.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents, and then some loose change from under my couch cusions and the ashtray in my truck. Really great work here, Misty. /cheers on an excellent hub.
This is fascinating stuff Misty, and fodder for the argument that an individual's chosen faith is little more than an accident of geography. I'd heard one or two bits of this before, but you've found loads of really interesting details. So many of these stories were passed on by rote. Few people could read or write, but everyone loves stories, and who could blame the story-teller sitting in the smoky half-light of a log fire, if he or she added their own embellishments to the tales that had been passed down to them?
Amanda, you're dead on. And I don't even think some of them were embellishments. You can look at a lot of those, and they are merely different words for saying the same thing.
Good Hub! another testament to my theory from years of self study, research and mystical "meditation"...that the concept of the Christ is what is important; the Christ "aborning" within us all, that Jesus and many throughout history and legend wanted to let the people know, that the Christ within themselves is God within us all. Jesus, Krishna, Buddha (and according to your research) many others, tried to show us an example of how to seek and "Become" that Christ consciousness.
Each came in their own times and cultures to "show" the different "manifestations" of the Christ consciousness that is truly the "one Christ Mind" of God as the One state of consciousness shared.
But I have to admit, that I sense there is something particular about Jesus that rises above all the others as far as an example of the Christ goes...working on that one!
Thanks for all the great comments everyone, and especially Shades for answering in such detail and taking the time to do so. I really appreciate everyone's feedback on this and am finding it fascinating to hear all of your views on this subject matter. Keep them coming :)
Hey Misty! Great hub. There is one myth that I question. The story of the God of unknown origins. I was just reminded of it from what SJ wrote. There is something rather mysterious about Jesus I cannot say there isn't.
Of course my unpopular view is that Jesus is an imposter, or the deciever etc. and the real Messiah has yet to come or maybe he just comes at certain times or whatever, I don't really know.
But according the the myths of the god who randomly appears in many of the legends, if you would take note how this god shows up and is always called the god of unknown origins.
Part of me things that Jesus also saw this mystery god, and assumed it because it was overlooked or maybe all these gods saw this as well as it is usually overlooked, and then assumed it for their own???
Oh so many questions, though it still doesn't make me believe less in God but of course the God I herken to is my own. lol.
Anyways, just some food for thought, maybe you could research it and write another hub about that. that would be awesome, and probabaly worth your wild to chase down.
xoxo
Thanks for commenting Sandra, and a very interesting point of view you offer too. I will look into the 'God of Unknown Origins' idea, and see if there is enough research material out there to make up a good hub. :)
Not a problem, as ideas went it made a great hub, prefer what and the way you stated it though.
Thanks Rodney, I appreciate that very much :)
Hi Misty,
All those similarities! How very interesting. However the God of this world Satan the Devil is great at making up lies and sending imposters to try to confuse people away from the real Christ. See John 8:42-47. Revelations 12:9.
After Noah's flood Satan did not quit sending imposters to deceive humans again. In Genesis 10:8-12, Genesis 11:1-8. Nimrod was opposed to God. He is the one along with his mother wife who has been perpetutated down through the centuries as a type of Christ so that when the real Christ came as a child they would not recognize him. Jesus did not come to save the world at that time but will return shortly in our time as perdicted in Scriptures.
Having many god's that seemed similar to Christ is not new. Even the Greeks had many counterfeits that the apostle Paul explained who the unknown God was to the Greeks, Acts 17:22-28, Romans 1:18-25. They had many false gods that are really not god but only distortions put out here to keep people deceived down through the ages. Nimrod had many different name like Horus, Osirus, Mithra, 1 Corinthians 11:4, posing as the true God's Son Jesus Christ. Mother and Child is not new you can find them in pagan religions in China and around the world.
They still exist with all the other false gods to blind people and confuse them right up to today. You have Gnostics, agnostics, New Age, Luceferians, Mason and Rosicrcians, Illuminati, New Age and many more who say they are the Christ. But Jesus said not to believe them, Matthew 24:4--5.
You can find plenty of books on these subjects like the Golden Bough which is about Nimrod and his son Tammuz born from Semiramus his mother. Her other name is Astarte or Easter or Isis (Egyptian), Baal, the mother god. All these deceptions all are there to mislead you and to put you to doubt as to who is the real Christ. But do not worry God has given us only 6,000 years since Adam and Eve's deceptions by Satan, Genesis 3:15-16 to try and bring peace on earth by there own means. Since 31 A.D. when Christ died for us, God has given him to us as a light to clear up this mess on earth. Most of the world still rejects the real Christ but be of good cheer he has overcome the world for us. He is coming soon in our time before all these false Christs, used to hide the real Christ, destroy us all. It is a great mystery to most now but Jesus Christ will put and end to all this nonsense to deceive us. Satan offers a false salvation in which we are promises to get to heaven, Which he failed to do Isaiah 14:12-15, but the True Christ will come again and put Satan away for 1,000 years. and then forever. We will have peace on earth, 1Thessalonians 4:15-18, Revelations 19,20,21 & 22. The real Christ is coming back to do away with evil and death and give eternal life to those that follow Him. All those other imposters will be gone and we wil have a New Heaven and New Earth where our Heavenly Father will join us after Christ has made the enemies of God his footstool. The worship of other imposters is forbiden by the First and Second Commandments of the Big Ten. Worship of other gods is Idolatry that try oppose the True Godhead just like Nimrod in Genesis 10:8-12
The Lionswhelp.
Hi MISTY LADY :0)
Great research and very good points... I was amazed at the similarities between them all. The only reason I believe what I believe is because of personal revalation and not some teaching, church or religion...otherwise it would all be very confusing....I found my truth by questioning every thing and most of all getting real and arguing my Case before God and getting him to reavel himself to me....Great Hub and great to see you Mike:0)
Thank you for your comment Lionswhelp. I still don't understand how the 'False Gods' could have the same life story as Christ centuries before Jesus was born though, and why the same cannot be said of Jesus story, i.e. that it is the work of Satan sending imposters to confuse people. I still need more than quotes from the Bible to explain this, as if the Bible was also sent by Satan, how would we know?
Hi Mike, always great to see you on one of my hubs, and I totally respect that you have had a personal revelation that has made you comfortable with what you believe, and I am glad that you did question everything, (as we all should do). I guess that is what I am doing too by writing this hub, looking for answers and explanations.
So glad you are the type of person who is happy to read and comment on a hub like this with no condemnation, just by simply stating your own reasons for what you believe and why it makes sense.
LOL, yes, this 'tower' has made it a lot easier to keep producing regular hubs, although my Husband barely knows who I am when I emerge on rare occasions to visit the rest of the house.
Thank you :)
Misty:0) I love your Original and critical thinking . We are all truth seekers and when we stop searching we die and become droids.
I`m so glad to have the pleasure of knowing you...wish you were my neighbour ( well yes on the net LOL) but we could have some healthy debates in the local!!!
Love you my dear !!! MIKE:0) your Irish brother!!!
PS You can let your down and your husband can climb up LOL
LOL, thanks Mike, yes that would be fun. Perhaps if I come to Ireland fishing again sometime we could meet up for a beer and a happy, healthy debate. That would be fun, and I so love the Irish personalities. :) :) :)
Love you too Mike, my fellow hubber friend :)
It's funny actually, as my Husband is a Christian and firmly believes in the Bible, but he questions nothing, and didn't even know that Christ was not born on Dec 25th, nor did he realise that it doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that he was. His reluctance to question any of this has caused many debates in our home, and all I ask is for him to do a bit more research on the subject rather than blindly believe. I still love him to bits though :)
Meant to say Hair down Lol
Your right alot of christians never question what they believe and when you consider that God made man to have a realtionship and to debate and question everything with him and that he gave us free will...big hint there:0) I love the fact that i can debate with My God and the freedom i have and I read this recently and i quote...When i die and meet God I want to tell him I used up all the talents he has given Me!!!!!!!! Thats it right there....
Misty that is why I could not fit into religion because it was lifless and boring...but a true realationship with a loving God is the most romantic realtionship you can get and religion is like a dead marriage doing things out of a sense of duty and pure boredom..
Keep at it you will find the truth...in most religions people have to go to the god...but the fun loving Romantic God I know comes to me and that is true humilty and such an honor!!!!
Ok ...no more preaching LOL MIKE :0)
Hi Mike, don't worry, I guessed the missing word was 'hair'.
I so love the way to express yourself, and I too totally believe in a God, just in my own way that makes sense to me and feels right. Conventional Religion tends to be a means to control the masses, and I feel is often manipulated for this purpose. A true love and belief in God requires so much more than quotes from a book of questionable origin, and surely anyone would want evidence they can believe in without blind faith. After all, if someone told you they had come across the newly returned Christ, you would want to see evidence he was who he said he was, and not simply trust his word for it. In fact my guess is most Christians would refute his claims and treat him as badly as the Romans treated him last time, (allegedly if those event did happen).
Thumbs up to your hub Misty, I hope it gets allot of traffic and I'll mark it as a reference point for others to use if that's ok. I'm hearing whispers that the current hold on Christianity is heading for a deconstruction. I'm not sure how this is going to manifest but I look forward to it's unfolding.
These myths (Pagan, Egyptian, Buddhist) make allot of sense to me, I don't need to keep reading hubs to justify what I feel is an innate knowledge, but I do! It's not easy to use the word common sense when it comes to ancient myths, yet to me it is very much common sense. I'm frustrated, at a loss really, as to why it's so difficult to understand.
There's a term I use - exvoluted. Means the pulling of one's consciousness to anything outside yourself. It's the opposite of centredness, and knowing self. All the above myths teach how to become centered. Modern Christianity does not. It asks that you believe in something outside yourself, and that something outside yourself will 'SAVE' you. The greatest deception ever created is to believe something outside of you is going to do the work of 'enlightenment' for you. It's frightening.
Thanks Jewels, I loved your comment, so wise and logical, and mirrors my own thoughts and feelings. I would be delighted for you to mark this hub as a reference point for others. Thank you :)
An amazing wealth of information. Thank you for the time you put into this Hub.
Hi Misty
I'd have to agree with Lionswhelp other than the fact that we are living in the 1,000 year period right now. Satan will be let loose soon but he won't have much time before he is kaput. The stories of these impostors have been around for a while. Good compilation with the images and all though.
Mike
Thanks Candace, pleased you enjoyed it and found it informative.
Thanks Make Money, I appreciate your comment, but as I also responded to Lionswhelp, 'I still don't understand how the 'False Gods' could have the same life story as Christ centuries before Jesus was born though, and why the same cannot be said of Jesus story, i.e. that it is the work of Satan sending imposters to confuse people. I still need more than quotes from the Bible to explain this, as if the Bible was also sent by Satan, how would we know?'
I simply need more evidence to back up the statements, just as someone who visits a Psychic Medium needs more than just declarations that 'Your deceased Mother says she loves you' to be convinced the Medium is genuine. What they really want is for their deceased Mother to come through the Psychic Medium and say, 'By the way, did you know you left the oven on', and then when they get home to find that yes they did leave the oven on!
Misty ...hey I just had a thought...What convince you personaly that god trully exists...Jesus The holy spirit ..What could he do for you? Let me know on the private contact if you wish and I will pray that he will reveal etc to you...after all people have been debating since the beginning of time about his excistance and it has not really proved a whole lot except start new religions with man as the founder and we all know the fallout ....anyway let me know and I will gladly pray on your behalf or ask him yourself..
love you Mike ;0)
"All these facts are evidence of the misdirection and trickery of the Devil" is the same empty defense the less curious or less confident practitioners of some religions alway rely on to brush away legitimate questions. Misty asks, "Well, why do these other stories come so much earlier?" Answer, "Trickery of the Devil to mislead you." Why are the fossils so old, and the carbon dating data giving us time frames so much greater than 6,000 years? Answer: Trickery of the Devil. You can use that answer for anything. Or, if you like, you can also use, "Because it's God's plan, and we mere mortals cannot know God's plan." That's a great answer for contradictions too. Doesn't actually answer anything and totally begs the question, but hey, it's enough to satisfy many. Some people aren't interested in questioning and testing their faith. I think this is more due to fear of seeing it disproved than it is due to certainty that it can't be.
Shades, 'faith' and logic do not necessarily go hand in hand.
Hi Cindy,
another great read, and controversial too. thanks.
Hi Misty - This is very well put together and makes an interesting read. I don't think it's so hard to understand the similarities between traditions. There have always been travellers and storytellers, and such wanderers would quickly learn that the best story to tell is the one people want to hear. You're more likely to be given your supper that way. Fear of death is a universal, beause al we can possibly know is life, by definition. Therefore tales that death is a gateway to a new life would always be popular. One interesting non-detail is the missing history from age 12 to 30. Any theories on that one?
Hi Shades, thanks for coming by and commenting again. I do tend to agree that it becomes rather frustrating when the same defence 'Trickery of the Devil' is used to explain away every legitimate question asked by those of us who need a lot more than a simple blind belief to convince us.
All these quotes from the Bible tend to bug me, because it seems logical to me that if the Church wanted to convert Pagans to Christianity, it would be in their interests to 're-word' the Bible so as to dismiss any valid points made about the similarities between earlier stories that mirrored Christ's apparent life story, and make out they were the work of the devil.
Amanda, thanks for commenting. Faith and logic do not always go hand in hand, but I do feel we cannot blindly believe anything we are told without needing some logic to back it up. After all, if someone told you that jumping from a plane without a parachute would not kill you, would you say, 'errrr, okay', and then jump?
Thanks Benson, so pleased you enjoyed the reading matter and found it interesting.
Hi Paraglider, thanks for your comments. I agree it is probably true that the best storytellers are the ones who tell a tale others want to hear. In this case a tale that offers hope for the future. Not sure what to make of the missing history between 12 and 30. I have often wondered about that myself. Do you have any theories on this?
Hi Mike, well for what it is worth I do believe in a God already, mainly because I ask myself where the whole universe appeared from otherwise, and the fact we exist at all is cause for me to believe in 'something'. What I might need more convincing on is the whole Christ story thing, but to absolutely convince me that there is a loving Christ up there watching over us, I guess I would need some kind of visitation from an angel, or a deceased loved one talking to me and telling me these truths. Thank you for offering to pray for me on this, all prayers I always appreciate, and I have prayed myself for this kind of proof, but so far none is forthcoming. :)
Ok! Misty your on ;0)
Sorry I did see that you believed in God LoL
So i will pray that Jesus will make himself known to you in a personal way :0)
catch you later mike :00)
Thanks Mike, you will be the first to know if he does and I shall give you full credit for the revelation right here. :) :) :)
And if Not I still love you! anyway.... LOL :0)
Cheers Misty you know your my sister :0)
Mike :):):):)
Cheers Mike, I will still love you either way too, and am proud to be your 'Sister'. :) :) :) :)
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OK! SIS :0)
Later MIKE:):):):):)
LOL, yep, catch you later too :) :) :) :)
Misty;
I suspect that you will be less thrilled seeing me here than even Mike. That was a liittle much, don't you think? Anyway, to the point of the hub (as I see it):
I will not give any Christian doctrines here, as I am more than certain they would be unwelcome.
Instead, let me debunk this factually ridiculous fabrication. Yes, I did read the whole hub, and I tried to read the links. However, they are so factually wrong that I could not follow them very far. I only read this so you could not say I did not.
First, you missed a couple of things. The Old Testament has many prophesies of Jesus, in varying detail. The Bible is a book, in which nowhere does it say that it was designed to provide detail every possible little detail known to the prophets. The important thing to remember here is that the Old Testament was first written in about 3100 B. C.
Let me relate my feelings about the Roman gods. You show Mithra here. I studied Latin for six years, and I never heard of Mithra there. Romans had a god for everything, and I mean everything. Mithra was nowhere to be found, not that it was not there, just irrelevent to major Roman literature. The point here is that Rome decayed around its ridiculous idol worship. That is indisputable. For me, I prefer for my civilization to not decay into total ruin. Rome was the America of its time, far and away the world leader. Idol worship is the only conclusion for its decay. It rotted from within and decayed around itself. I realize that your purpose in presenting Mithra was to discredit Jesus, but again the time frame of Roman gods was much later than the early writings of the Old Testament.
OK, on to the Eqyptian gods. This was absurd, I am sorry to say. First the dates are a total lie. The dates you list for Horus, for example are way off. You claim they are 4-7 BCE. What would that prove? 4-7 years. Well, in fact, these stories, albeit wrong but I will get back to that, are much older. They probably generated about 2400 B.C. That is about 700 years after the early biblical writings.
As to the story of Horus, the link is so wrong. It says that Isis was Horus' mother, when they were brother and sister. Horus was not the creator, Atum was. Again, there were many gods in the pyramid texts, the oldest versions of Egyptian gods. Then later, the shabaka stone changed it all! In that version, Ptah replaced Atum. You question the credibility of Christianity, but the Egyptians could not even figure out who God was? Look where the Eqyptians ended up, conquered by the Greeks who were then conquered by Rome which then rotted into ruin. Wow, that program really worked, huh?
For me, I do not care to give any time to phony religions who do not know who their god is. Nor, do I care to take time for gods that rotted out the most powerful society ever. I sure do not appreciate getting links that are totally wrong. I point out all the wrong information just so you can see that using that information is unreliable as source material.
I pray that America does not llisten to any of this information. We are a Christian nation that stands precariously as the world leader. If God the one and only (the one God of the trinity) turns his back on America, we will go the way of the great Eqyptians and Romans. God forbid!!!!
Hi Misty,
I'm all for logic. That's always been my problem with religion. I could write a very long list of contradictions in the Bible. A story that was for so long an oral tradition, and then translated from language to language, is unlikely to have survived intact . It's a bit like Chinese Whispers really.
Firstly Viralprospector, can I say I have no problem with Mike107 at all, and he is a genuine, non-ranting and good Christian man. I am always thrilled to have him visit my hubs, as he is polite, kind and warm. I can't imagine why you think I would be anything but welcoming to Mike.
Your tone in your response comes across as unecessarily aggressive, and I see no need for that level of reaction. There are many many sites on the net that back up the stories of these other Gods and Icons sharing the same stories of life as Jesus, and I severely doubt all of them could be wrong. If I only wanted to discredit Jesus by using 'Mithra' as an example, why would I post a link with the Christian arguments against this theory, when I could have easily pretended not to have seen that site? From what I have researched Mithra was not one of the main Roman Gods, so perhaps that is why you hadn't heard of him. Mithras, is also known as a God in Greek mythology.
I shall look into your other points further and come back to this hub to post my findings, probably tomorrow now. But I would suggest you try a less aggressive approach when placing comments if you do not wish to cause offence. No-one appreciates being ranted at, and this is when people usually stop listening!
Great hub Misty. I admire you for writing this hub. I have been trying to formulate how I wanted to go about writing one similiar myself. You handled it very well and presented with an open mind. You've also handled the comments very well.
I can't logically look at religion, the bible, and devil, God, etc. and just blindly believe. I don't believe and personally think it's a waste of time for people to even argue about why one should or should not believe. Those who believe will probably always believe (mostly out of fear of NOT believing) and those who don't believe will probably always have doubts because it all defies any normal reasoning.
Thanks KCC, I appreciate a nice calm rational comment, and your opinion is based on what you are comfortable with, and what feels right to you. You are not even remotely attempting to force it on to other people, which is refreshing and how it should be. Thank you again :)
Viralprospector,
Once again I see you are the offensive, waging a crusade against those who disagree, wielding the rhetorical weapons of zealotry (half-truth, misrepresentation, omission, groundless unwarranted claims and circular-reasoning). I was surprised to see you come out as hostile as you did against Misty, whose hub and whose responses have been nothing but polite, open minded and welcoming. Well, okay, I wasn’t really surprised. Misty was, for reasons unbeknownst to me, far, far more respectful of your comment that you deserved, likely because she’s always polite and respectful, likely governed by her sweet disposition. Fortunately for me, I have no such internal regulator, so, let me show you how ridiculous that crap you just vomited up there in your comment really was:
1. You said (and I giggled) “The point here is that Rome decayed around its ridiculous idol worship. That is indisputable.” First off, you almost made me blow Pepsi all over my computer screen; normally you aren’t that funny. Secondly, not only is this “fact” disputable, it’s so easily disputable as to almost not require dispute at all. However, since you showed up so condescending and overbearing, I will dispute it just for fun.
The entire premise of a statement of garbage such as that is in the assumption that there is a divine imperative operating behind the “success or failure” of an Empire at all. You are assuming one with this foolish comment, and then claiming the fall of the Roman Empire is because your God triumphed over their [false] one(s).
And while this is a fantastic piece of medieval reasoning, worthy of a Crusader mindset and that of an Inquisitor, it requires subscription to belief in the divine AT ALL to hold water. So, being that I don’t subscribe to the belief of such active divinity, that assumption on your part becomes suspect at the very, very best, and garbage more likely still.
Beyond that, and ignoring the divine underpinnings, I can see you’ve never read a history book on Rome ever. Not even a picture book in elementary school apparently. Perhaps you should at least turn on the History channel or something sometime, just for an hour or so step away from the Evangelical Mindwash Channel, and you’d know why Rome failed. Rome failed because it over-extended its Empire, pressed beyond its ability to enforce its laws effectively, and the problem was exacerbated by incompetent Caesars, plague and a number of other things which any 7th grader can tell you.
2. You accuse Misty of having the “purpose of discrediting Jesus.” To that I say, “How do you know what her purpose is?” What she wrote does not “discredit” him in anyway. It asks questions about the nature of the myth of Christ and draws plausible conclusions based on histories taken from other written accounts outside of your personal favorite book. There is no declared purpose in her hub beyond learning more.
It is, however, quite clear that YOUR purpose is to discredit Misty and to credit Christ. That’s great on the second part, but the hostility of the first makes you subject to ridicule as it is out of keeping with the very attitudes you pretend to hold so dear through your relationship with Christ.
3. You wrote, so bombastically, “OK, on to the Eqyptian gods. This was absurd, I am sorry to say. First the dates are a total lie. The dates you list for Horus, for example are way off. You claim they are 4-7 BCE. What would that prove? 4-7 years. Well, in fact, these stories, albeit wrong but I will get back to that, are much older. They probably generated about 2400 B.C. That is about 700 years after the early biblical writings.”
You say you “read the entire hub” but this remark shows that in fact you brushed your eyes over it briefly in your race to get to the bottom of the page to try to smear Misty’s considered and open-minded work. If you were to actually go back up there and let your zealous vision hover for more than .000000000000001th of a second on what she wrote, you would see that the words actually say: “The legends of Horus had been in circulation for centuries before Christ's birth (circa 4 to 7 BCE).” In English class, they teach you to find the subject of a sentence first, in this case “THE LEGENDS OF HORUS” works out to be the subject (you can tell because what follows is “the verb” of the sentence, “has been,” but I risk didacticism here, and it’s clear you didn’t do too well in school so I’ll stop there.) Anyway, if you drop the modifier “of Horus” what you have is the SUBJECT OF MISTY’S CLAIM: “the legend.” After that, you will notice what the sentence is actually saying about “the legend of Horus” and that is that it “has been in circulation for centuries before Christ’s birth (circa 4 to 7 BCE).” You see, that date is a reference to the period of time OF Christ’s birth, BEFORE which, the “legend of Horus” was in circulation. I hope this little remedial English lesson will be of use to you in the future.
4. You say, “The Bible is a book, in which nowhere does it say that it was designed to provide detail every possible little detail known to the prophets.” You use this as an excuse as to why there is stuff missing, and because of this design, any questions that are put to the book can be easily dismissed. So basically, the Bible by what is NOT there, has the ability to defend itself from any questions at all. But that’s a double edged sword. A famous example of the inability of zealotry to HATE that kind of thinking is evolution. If a scientist can’t find a skeletal fossil for every single phase of the transformative process that took place of millions of years, evolution is found by the zealot to be completely disproven. “You don’t have every piece of information to confirm what you suggest may be suggested by your carefully compiled evidence.” And yet, when questions are put to that same Bible-beating Crusader, he can dismiss any skepticism by simply saying, “The Bible is a book, in which nowhere does it say that it was designed to provide detail every possible little detail known to the prophets.” I laugh at this and shine a big fat spotlight on your hypocrisy.
Next time, be nice when you come into someone’s house and want to make a point. Misty was being nice and you came in swinging for no reason at all. So, I stick my tongue out at you and dare you to pipe in again like that. See what it gets you next.
Thanks Shades, a great comment and fully cleared up a number of the points Viral made. :)
MH2003;
Well, if you think I was ranting, so be it. I just posted that your hub was wrong. Call it what you will. Funny that when people are called wrong, they always say you are ranting.
Shadesbreath;
I am glad that you and MH2003 exactly validated my initial position that I was about as welcome here as death is to an atheist. I love to come on atheist threads and see that all the BS you all accuse me of doing is exactly what you all do. I would do nothing fo the kind to you, though, huh?
Viral: you were openly hostile to Misty, accusing her of lying and lots of other stuff. You got what you gave. You STILL refuse to see what is being said here, and your comments are so loaded with your own prejudice that you can't even see it. This is NOT an athiest thread, at all, so you clearly did not read it despite saying that you did. And if you DID read it and came away with the conclusion that it is an atheist thread, than you prove with incredible clarity that you are in fact completely blinded by your faith and incapable of even seeing what people write if it does not immediately boil forth with identical positions to yours.
YOU started the attack, I merely gave you what you deserve. However, and despite my not being Christian, I am willing to forgive your hostility and will happily engage in civil discourse if you would like. I could just have easily have been polite when I pointed out how you misread what she wrote, and where some of the points you bring up have counters and points in polite opposition.
So, play nice. We can disagree without being mean spirited. I do think you should go back and try to read Misty's hub again carefully so you don't get run off track arguing against stuff she didn't write.
Also, I don't know too many Christians who seek death either, so if your point is that atheists (of which I am not one) don't welcome death is to say that they are not in a rush to find oblivion because there is no God for them, I would say that fact is balanced by the Christian not welcoming death either, which is proven by the fact that, outside hard core Christian Scientists, every Christian I know goes to the doctor when they get sick rather than just letting his or her Creator take them unto His bosom at the first chance they get. I even see Christians wearing seatbelts and helmets when they ride motorcycles, they use smoke detectors in their homes and do also sorts of other things like that. So, obviously Christians don't welcome death either. :)
Hi Cindy,
Great research you have here, pretty interesting to read. I did not really suspect that there were that many characters with that many commonalities. :)
And just ignore VP, he is always aggresively condescending with non-christians. He can't do this on forums anymore cause Mark always calls on him, so now he probably tries to troll in comments :)
Thank you for this Hub, Misty.
You are right ... the fact that the same story is retold does not diminish the story in any way. All of those echoes only show that the story is universal.
Other universal stories also ring out over centuries and across oceans.
And the mystery of -Why?- remains.
Thank You Shades for being on Misty's side and I love that you can battels against the best of the. What Christians seem to forget and they forget a whole lot is---Christ loves all of us and we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. Now VP has attacked me in one of the religious forms too along with some others and I baced out of them. They are to spread love, not hate so it is in my observation that they have been taught this from a very early age.
All anyone has to do it read on chapter of that Bible and it is all clear--but they chose to take verses out of context to meet their own needs. That verse is 1 John chapter 4. I don't always go to scritures like this but this is one that I came across doing research for one of my hubs on Friday.
I will not tell anyone what it says only becaseu those christians need to do research on their own..............uh-hem.......that is what Jesus said to do anyway.
Thanks so much everyone,
Having read all of your supportive comments I now see that VP is actually one of these people who truly feels threatened by anything that contradicts what he believes to be the truth. Trouble is that he hasn't yet learnt people handling and communication skills as to how to deliver his opinion without putting other people's backs up.
It is a great relief to see so many people can see this, apart from of course, VP himself, who is so obviously threatened by others who do not blindly follow what he himself, (for some bizzare reason) believes to be the 'truth' with no actual convincing evidence to back it up.
I never intended to come across as an Atheist, as I am most definitely not one, (which VP would know if he had read my Hub properly), and I do actually believe in a God, just not all the so called Bible teachings that have undoubtedly been twisted by the Church to control the masses. They rely on people like VP to blindly believe these teachings, and all he is doing is playing straight into their hands, (be them ancient or otherwise), and sadly without even realising he is doing it.
Special thanks to Shades, who as always clarifies the facts with his intelligence, brilliance and observational skills. He doesn't need to offend to make his point, the facts he states speak for themselves based on his clear reasoning.
Sorry VP, but I don't need to do any further research now, as Shades explained perfectly why the points I made in the hub were valid, and how you failed to read them properly, and then came in on the attack in a VERY unchristian way. Your attitude is a large part of what puts people off of Christianity. Again, sorry, but it is true. If you want to get your message across, try being more genuine and kind like Mike107; people listen to men like him, and not to aggressive so'n'so's who come out on the attack every time their beliefs are contradicted.
To question facts shows intelliegence, to blindly follow makes us sheep. Personally I would rather question things than become a sheep!
Wow, all that rhetoric just for me? Funny but no one can dispute my points. What you do is compliment me by giving me negative comments. Oh that's right Shadesbreath did say the Roman Empire did not fall from its own corruption caused by its idol worship. Whatever, man... What are your credentials to dispute it. One or two internet articles, if that?
Sorry, The hub was incorrect, and I am sure glad that the atheists are the nice ones. Sorry, but I haven't seen any Christians here in the replies to me or about me, that I recall.
LOL, surely you are not serious. Your points have clearly already been disputed, Shades has saved me loads of time by pointiing out how you didn't read the hub properly, and that your criticisms were incorrect, plus, you lump us in as not being nice people, when I am guessing that if most of the people here are even the slightest bit like me they, 1) love nature, 2) love animals, 3) help others, 4) look after the planet and 5) Don't allow themselves to be insulted and attacked by spiteful, narrow minded people who blindly believe in anything that is written in a dusty old, no doubt mistranslated and manipulated book.
Never mind, not all of us can act as any worthwhile God would want us to eh?????
Really? Please explain what was not mathematical, so we can examine the math together. We can even do it with civility. That would be fun. :)
....and you timeline was also incorrect and pointed out and you refuse to see that. What make you think you are trhe only one who is correct--it doesn't say that in any Bible that you read and I doubt that you even read the book and chapter in the Bible that I posted up.
Did you mean the Woman of Samaria story, Lady Guinevere?
1 John 4...........says something about love and God and Jesus. I worte a whole hub on it--love and God or something like that. It is a new hub--Friday.
Here it is: http://hubpages.com/hub/Love-Is-Gods-Love-We-Are
Ah yes. Well, that certainly does present lots of opportunity for interpretation and mis-interpretation. Frankly, that's a main problem for Christians: their book is not only subject to interpretative reading of any given part, but it is fraught with self-contradiction within its own pages. Some of this is the nature of language, and particularly of language that's been translated etc., but some of it is just in how human communication works.
Christians love to quote out o context and not read the enitre chapter. It's like you wife talking about someone elses trangressions and the husband only hearing the part o9f trangress and then---oh my--he gets the idea that she did it and wasn't just talking aobut a friend..........They don't get that part.
Shadesbreath, You said, "Once again I see you are the offensive, waging a crusade against those who disagree, wielding the rhetorical weapons of zealotry (half-truth, misrepresentation, omission, groundless unwarranted claims and circular-reasoning)."
Can't you see what a hypocrit you are? You accuse me of doing what you are doing when I didn't even do them.
"I was surprised to see you come out as hostile as you did against Misty, whose hub and whose responses have been nothing but polite, open minded and welcoming."
I do not think i was the hostile one, to say the least. Can you remember the last sentence you wrote??? Yikes, you are too much.
"Well, okay, I wasn’t really surprised. Misty was, for reasons unbeknownst to me, far, far more respectful of your comment that you deserved, likely because she’s always polite and respectful, likely governed by her sweet disposition."
But not you. You just want to accuse me of being aggressive, huh? What a joke!
"Fortunately for me, I have no such internal regulator, so, let me show you how ridiculous that crap you just vomited up there in your comment really was:"
You are fortunate for yourself. That is your story and you are sticking to it, huh? "1. You said (and I giggled) “The point here is that Rome decayed around its ridiculous idol worship. That is indisputable.” First off, you almost made me blow Pepsi all over my computer screen; normally you aren’t that funny. Secondly, not only is this “fact” disputable, it’s so easily disputable as to almost not require dispute at all. However, since you showed up so condescending and overbearing, I will dispute it just for fun."
Careful, slow down and take a deep breath, Shadesbreath. Don't spit your Pepsi on your screen. That is not all that cool to do. "The entire premise of a statement of garbage such as that is in the assumption that there is a divine imperative operating behind the “success or failure” of an Empire at all. You are assuming one with this foolish comment, and then claiming the fall of the Roman Empire is because your God triumphed over their [false] one(s).
That is ignorant of the facts, Sahdesbreath. You do know the facts don't you? How did you learn them? Are you educated on Rome? How? Well, be sure that your credentials pale by comparsion. It does take education to be able to make bold overriding statements. Might it be that I have that very education?"And while this is a fantastic piece of medieval reasoning, worthy of a Crusader mindset and that of an Inquisitor, it requires subscription to belief in the divine AT ALL to hold water. So, being that I don’t subscribe to the belief of such active divinity, that assumption on your part becomes suspect at the very, very best, and garbage more likely still."
That is 100% rhetoric, as is typical of you. I saaid nothing of God'w wrath against Rome. You attributed it to me, though, didn't you? Isn't that what you thought I meant. Well, I do not need to go there, just as I said I didn't intend to do in my post. There is no fact in what you wrote. "Beyond that, and ignoring the divine underpinnings, I can see you’ve never read a history book on Rome ever."
Oh that is going too far, boy. It is time to settle this crap once and for all,. OK, the challenge is issued. Now it is time for the embarrassment to occur. We will see who is the expert here. I challenge you. Here is my offer, Winner take all. Put up or shut up, right? We will appoint an objectivbe third party to gather our written provable credentials on the history of Rome. We will see who has read a Roman history textbook... The loser has to resign from hubpages and never return. Are you willing to back up all your BS? Well, let's go, big bag of wind...or are you really an expert. Hint, don't take me up on this unless you are...
"Not even a picture book in elementary school apparently. Perhaps you should at least turn on the History channel or something sometime, just for an hour or so step away from the Evangelical Mindwash Channel, and you’d know why Rome failed. Rome failed because it over-extended its Empire, pressed beyond its ability to enforce its laws effectively, and the problem was exacerbated by incompetent Caesars, plague and a number of other things which any 7th grader can tell you."
Your hypothesis is pure BS. Rome handled its outlying territories just fine. That is why they had them. Their leadrs became idol worshippers, drunken, lazy, orgy participants who lost their drive. Sexual disease became rampant, and it imploded. Oh, about that challenge... This is a lot of big words, can you back them up with credentials as to your opinion? "2. You accuse Misty of having the “purpose of discrediting Jesus.” To that I say, “How do you know what her purpose is?” What she wrote does not “discredit” him in anyway. It asks questions about the nature of the myth of Christ and draws plausible conclusions based on histories taken from other written accounts outside of your personal favorite book. There is no declared purpose in her hub beyond learning more."
Just a wild guess... "It is, however, quite clear that YOUR purpose is to discredit Misty and to credit Christ. That’s great on the second part, but the hostility of the first makes you subject to ridicule as it is out of keeping with the very attitudes you pretend to hold so dear through your relationship with Christ."
OK. let me get this right. I can't guess about Misty's point, but you can guess at mine? Is that what is considered fiar on the atheist hubs? Christians must be discriminated against? And it was me that was hostile, right? Wow, this is really out there... I pretend no Christian attitudes. They are right up front for all to see. Wrong is wrong, and I will not call it smoochie poochie lovie dovies. "3. You wrote, so bombastically, “OK, on to the Eqyptian gods. This was absurd, I am sorry to say. First the dates are a total lie. The dates you list for Horus, for example are way off. You claim they are 4-7 BCE. What would that prove? 4-7 years. Well, in fact, these stories, albeit wrong but I will get back to that, are much older. They probably generated about 2400 B.C. That is about 700 years after the early biblical writings.” You say you “read the entire hub” but this remark shows that in fact you brushed your eyes over it briefly in your race to get to the bottom of the page to try to smear Misty’s considered and open-minded work. If you were to actually go back up there and let your zealous vision hover for more than .000000000000001th of a second on what she wrote, you would see that the words actually say: “The legends of Horus had been in circulation for centuries before Christ's birth (circa 4 to 7 BCE).” In English class, they teach you to find the subject of a sentence first, in this case “THE LEGENDS OF HORUS” works out to be the subject (you can tell because what follows is “the verb” of the sentence, “has been,” but I risk didacticism here, and it’s clear you didn’t do too well in school so I’ll stop there.) Anyway, if you drop the modifier “of Horus” what you have is the SUBJECT OF MISTY’S CLAIM: “the legend.” After that, you will notice what the sentence is actually saying about “the legend of Horus” and that is that it “has been in circulation for centuries before Christ’s birth (circa 4 to 7 BCE).” You see, that date is a reference to the period of time OF Christ’s birth, BEFORE which, the “legend of Horus” was in circulation.
Let see here....Moses was brought up Egyptian ans was traingin for the priesthood, then he gets excommunicated becsue he killed a slave-owner that was treating a slave really bad, then all of a sudden there are th Ten Commandments that kind of mimic things against the pple that were training him..........hmm I find that amusing.
Christinas when presented with facts and told they are being unkind will always turn it around on others. I mean Always--they are taught taught way fronm a very early age. They are taught to hate otehrs views and therefore they end up hatinbg others---that is not what that good book and Jesus was teaching--yet that is all they seem to pick up.
Mistyhorizon2003;
"LOL, surely you are not serious. Your points have clearly already been disputed,"
Rhetoric disputes nothing. Words are hollow if they come from the top of the head or some internet article. We'll see who knows the truth shortly. Stay tuned to the challenge.
Shades has saved me loads of time by pointiing out how you didn't read the hub properly, and that your criticisms were incorrect, plus, you lump us in as not being nice people,
Wow, where did I do that. Everyone is claiming they are nice, but I just see a bunch of people calling me names and insulting me. If that is nice to atheists, fine with me.
"when I am guessing that if most of the people here are even the slightest bit like me they, 1) love nature, 2) love animals, 3) help others, 4) look after the planet and 5) Don't allow themselves to be insulted and attacked by spiteful, narrow minded people who blindly believe in anything that is written in a dusty old, no doubt mistranslated and manipulated book."
Oh, but that was nice, right? You know nothing about me. i will challenge you to compare who helps others more, you or me. wnat to prove how good you are? I issue you the same challenge as Shadesbreath. Who hleped the most people last year. Want to compare? Or would you rather compare who is helping the planet most? It is hard to prove who loves animals most, lol. Look, you are throwing the insults at me. I find this to be a very rationl response. So, don't fire off more insults at me. Just put up or shut up, know what I mean?
"Never mind, not all of us can act as any worthwhile God would want us to eh?????"
OK...
Shadesbreath;
Ever hear of a couble negative? It is a positive...
"Really? Please explain what was not mathematical, so we can examine the math together. We can even do it with civility. That would be fun. :)"
End of your fun, huh?
Lady G;
"....and you timeline was also incorrect and pointed out and you refuse to see that. What make you think you are trhe only one who is correct--it doesn't say that in any Bible that you read and I doubt that you even read the book and chapter in the Bible that I posted up."
How can I see what is not shown? You said I can't see it, but you are not showing it? OK, does that make sense to you? There is no fact there, is there? Are you refuting me with words when I gave my facts, as I see them anyway? I could not be the only one to be correct ever. These statements I made are the facts as I have been taught them. Sorry they bother you...
No I do not have time to read everything, and I did not read your link, and I was not posting to you, so that is perfectly OK. I will read what I deem credible for the most part. Sometimes, I read stuff for fun...
Lady G;
"Christians love to quote out o context and not read the enitre chapter."
I guess that is more being nice, huh?
It's like you wife talking about someone elses trangressions and the husband only hearing the part o9f trangress and then---oh my--he gets the idea that she did it and wasn't just talking aobut a friend..........They don't get that part.
Wow, that is quite a comparison...
LOL VP, bad luck and no candy :D
Nice try, but you should pick your audience more carefully. People here actively worked their whole life to come up with beliefs they have. And most of them did depart from Christianity as a result of their search. Your mumbo-jumbo is not going to win them back, sorry :)
VP said:
How can I see what is not shown? You said I can't see it, but you are not showing it? OK, does that make sense to you? There is no fact there, is there? Are you refuting me with words when I gave my facts, as I see them anyway? I could not be the only one to be correct ever. These statements I made are the facts as I have been taught them. Sorry they bother you...
No I do not have time to read everything, and I did not read your link, and I was not posting to you, so that is perfectly OK. I will read what I deem credible for the most part. Sometimes, I read stuff for fun...
LG says: Well those were pointed out to you by Shades and Misty. I am sorry that you read them differently then anyone else here. That is not my fault nor my problem.
You said that you would never respond to me--and that was a few weeks ago in a forum that you got quite upset with me in. So are you now changing the rules or your mind about it?
Nothing you say bothers me becasue I can see right rhough you and what you have been "TAUGHT" It is not from your SELF or God or Jesus, but from your Religion. Religion and Faith are totally different things and so is the Christian God and Jesus and the REAL Ones. Misty has pointed that out to you.
What you read it up to you and as much as you say that you don't read others comments and hubd, the same goes for you about us not reding anythinbg you write. Now does that make you feel better? I don't think it does because you are hell bent and that is a tught response in getting others to belive as you are taught and that is only your God and Jesus are the right ones and everyone else's reason and knowldege and experiences are totally wrong. That spreads hate not love and isn't love the main teachings of Jesus--or were you also taught that was wrong too.
Misty also stated several times that she is not an atheist, but you still call her one.-Is that a child's game we used to play when we were young---I know you are but what am I????
Lady G;
"Let see here....Moses was brought up Egyptian ans was traingin for the priesthood, then he gets excommunicated becsue he killed a slave-owner that was treating a slave really bad, then all of a sudden there are th Ten Commandments that kind of mimic things against the pple that were training him..........hmm I find that amusing."
Yes, I would suspect that YOU would...
Christinas when presented with facts and told they are being unkind will always turn it around on others.
Yes, indeed, why us bad Christians. Yessiree, we will always, yes not most of the time - always - turn it around on others when prexsented with the facts and told we are being unkind. Yes 77% of all Americans do that, don't you all know? What was that about the Pepsi, Shadesbreath?
"I mean Always--they are taught taught way fronm a very early age."
Yep, I remember when I was a baby and my Dad told me to always - and I mean always, let's be sure to emphasize that one - turn things around when I am told I am wrong and all that stuff. It was horrible. Those crazy Christian parents. What will they always do next?
They are taught to hate otehrs views and therefore they end up hatinbg others---that is not what that good book and Jesus was teaching--yet that is all they seem to pick up.
Hey, darn right, I was also taught to hate others, therefore I end up hating others. Yep, Jesus taught us Christians differently, but those of us who say the Bible is 100% correct we just go against Jesus. It makes sense to you, so it must be true for you. Wow, that was a wild ride trying to find agreement with you. Somehow, it seemed a little odd to me. What do you think?
VP Quoted me and responded with :
Lady G;
"Christians love to quote out o context and not read the enitre chapter."
I guess that is more being nice, huh?
LG says: It's a fact and has nothing to do with being nice or not.
Hi Misha;
LOL VP, bad luck and no candy :D
"Nice try, but you should pick your audience more carefully. People here actively worked their whole life to come up with beliefs they have. And most of them did depart from Christianity as a result of their search. Your mumbo-jumbo is not going to win them back, sorry :)"
What do they do now, worship Mark Knowles. Oh Hollybunga, ole Mark Knowles... Please save us form this crazy Christian? I am not trying to do any winning here.
Actually I want to give Mistyhorizon2003 her hub back. I made a simple few comments, and look what I got in return. Gee, I am overwhelmed. This feels like the CL religion forum...
Lady G;
You wrote, "How can I see what is not shown? You said I can't see it, but you are not showing it? OK, does that make sense to you? There is no fact there, is there? Are you refuting me with words when I gave my facts, as I see them anyway? I could not be the only one to be correct ever. These statements I made are the facts as I have been taught them. Sorry they bother you...
No I do not have time to read everything, and I did not read your link, and I was not posting to you, so that is perfectly OK. I will read what I deem credible for the most part. Sometimes, I read stuff for fun...
LG says: Well those were pointed out to you by Shades and Misty. I am sorry that you read them differently then anyone else here. That is not my fault nor my problem.
That did not make sense to me...
You said that you would never respond to me--and that was a few weeks ago in a forum that you got quite upset with me in. So are you now changing the rules or your mind about it?
Well, if that was the case, then I am wrong about that, huh?
Nothing you say bothers me becasue I can see right rhough you and what you have been "TAUGHT" It is not from your SELF or God or Jesus, but from your Religion. Religion and Faith are totally different things and so is the Christian God and Jesus and the REAL Ones. Misty has pointed that out to you.
You are full of yourself and no truth. No know nothing about me, and you are totally in left field. Who cares, though, huh? It is irrelevent to a hub where the facts were wrong. Is this just designed to bury that post deep so everyone will just think I am argumentative? Well, I dontinue to respond, but I just made a simple post saying that fracts were wrong. All the subsequent rhetoric is gettin us nowlere. You all have made up your minds about me, as prveven by that very statement of prejudice and foolishness...
What you read it up to you and as much as you say that you don't read others comments and hubd, the same goes for you about us not reding anythinbg you write. Now does that make you feel better? I don't think it does because you are hell bent and that is a tught response in getting others to belive as you are taught and that is only your God and Jesus are the right ones and everyone else's reason and knowldege and experiences are totally wrong. That spreads hate not love and isn't love the main teachings of Jesus--or were you also taught that was wrong too.
It appears that everyone in the world is reading what I post. I know that is an exaggeration, but you try to post this many replies back to back. Yecch. Mistyhorizon2003, I do apologize for all this immense detour to your hub. Maybe you can ask them to let you have it back. I am just replying...
Misty also stated several times that she is not an atheist, but you still call her one.-Is that a child's game we used to play when we were young---I know you are but what am I????
Mistyhorizon2003;
If I misread your earlier post on another thread, then I am sorry. You said that you were mostly a pagan, I thought. Is that changed? Are you now a sold out follower of Jesus Christ that believes that the Bible is 100% correct and God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one, otherwise known as a Christian?
VP, so words coming from an Internet article are not acceptable, yet words coming from the Bible, (with no proof the words are genuine translations or not manipulated), are acceptable.
My comments about 'nature, animals the planet etc' were not nasty, they merely made the point that we are decent people, ( and for what it is worth, not necessarily Atheists), who any God would be proud of for caring for his planet. If you want to go down the route of 'who did most for other people last year', well, how do you intend to judge this. I did loads, and not just for people. but for the planet, which is just as important. In fact my Husband and I are up for a conservation award this year, and not without good reason!!!
I am not intending to fire insults at you, but merely defending the fact that I am a good person, and one any God would be proud of. I look after his planet and his creatures, and my fellow humans wherever possible.
Do not attack people if you want truly to get your message across, it will fail miserably, and all you will make is enemies. I truly don't remember any scripture, true or otherwise, that says this is how Jesus got his message across.
Play nice and use intelligence rather than attack and abuse to make your case, just as the rest of us are doing!!!!
Mistyhorizon;
"Play nice and use intelligence rather than attack and abuse to make your case, just as the rest of us are doing!!!!"
Good one. Where was the lol?
I am a Pagan VP, but that does not make me an Atheist, and I don't have to be a Christian. I simply follow the 'original faith', and believe in respect for the planet, all the creatures on it, as well as all the woodland, plants etc. I went to convent schools and I learned that what they taught did not truly make sense or feel right. In other words, I trusted what I was comfortable with, and what information my God sent to me. A questioning mind, not a sheep, as God intended!
VP I was reading your somewhat unecessarily, aggressive comments on this hub and after looking at your avatar which beautifully depicts one hand reaching out to help another - pulling them up to a better place so to speak - I decided to take a look at your hubs and found these words of yours.
"Why are there so many arguments here? As a relative newcomer here, I see a lot of arguments over divisive issues. Lines are drawn like battle lines, and the trenches seem to just be getting dug deeper. I know it is not my place to question, and I am not trying to do that. Rather I am looking for common ground. I do not think these types of arguments are doing anyone any good."
I find this perplexing - a dichotomy in fact! cheers.
Great comment Ajcor, and well researched :) Apparently arguments are only allowed if they agree with VP, which seems somewhat unfair if you ask me :)
Hi Misty - a reasoned and reasonable argument needs two or more participants for the air to be cleared while a diatribe involves only one person. Discussion/arguments are always better don't you think! cheers.
Absolutely Ajcor, Thank you :) :)
Ajcor;
Well, I respond to what is written, nothing more or nothing less. I think you are the aggressor between us at this time with that post. How did I encourage you to say those things about me?
I was not looking for an argument. I have said that in nearly every post. You are eager to criticise (could not think of a better word) me, but what about all the posts I was replying to? I think that is a double standard. I totally disagree, and that is making your point, huh?
Can you see now how when people say something that requires the other to honestly disagree, it seems that the person replying is being argumentative. That is how language works. I cannot agree when I disagree, can I? I could just shut up, and that is the only other alternative. However, it does not make your point, that's for sure.
Dude you are blind and jumping off the handle. We can only see the others through what they write---it goes both ways ya know!
Lady G;
Yeah, maybe so, but I sure play a mean pinball...
You know VP, my guess is that we all love the planet and the creatures that dwell on it, and that any God would want us to do this. Why do we all battle against each other when essentially we all want to look after God's creation, or at least the earth we share, even those commenters who do not believe in anything, and are genuine Atheists! We should not be enemies, and we should respect each other's opinion. This is surely what any God would desire. If ever the world ends up at war with others, or other countries, then we will need to stick together, not fight amongst ourselves. It is a waste of energy, and not where we are meant to devote our energies, I am pretty sure of this and do not want to hate others, simply ask for a mutual respect in each other's beliefs, plus some rational as to why we believe what we each believe!!.
So your and Elton John Fan and have you seen th movei "Tommy"?
Mistyhorizon2003;
I completely agree with you on that attitude of cooperation and reaching out. Again, I apologize that your hub was highjacked here. Hopefully, all will agree with us in this. I do not resemble he things said about me here.
First, it may help you to know that I took five years of Latin in high school and had 19 hours of Latin credit at a major university. So, I have opinions on things said here. I run a small ministry that helped over 10,000 people last year (prison reentry, homelessness, domestic violence, and yes churches, etc). I am currently the marketing manager of a major alternative energy company, and I used to serve as the general manager of an alternative energy program. I do not say that to boast whatsoever, just to try to let others see me in a different light. The glory is to God for me.
Your priorities are good, and I greatly respect that. My partner in building schools in El Salvador is an atheist, and he is a very great man. Faith without works is dead. I am sure I got that our of one of my favorite books, lol.
Thank you very much for reaching out to me in peace. I almost never see that on Hubpages. I am very grateful, and I hope we are both successful in our endeavors to improve our world.
Misty, I've been very impressed with how you handled this entire day. Well done!
Thanks KCC, it really helps to get feedback that makes me sure I have handled the comments correctly, and without prejudice. :) :) :)
VP, I never aim to make enemies, only friends. I so love the planet and the creatures that dwell on it.
I don't for one minute doubt you do major good works for the planet and the needy, and what you are doing is good and right. I myself have been a victim of domestic violence, more than once, and would greatly have appreciated help from anyone if I had been brave enough to seek it.
I never want to fall out with a fellow hubber, if it is avoidable, not to mention a fellow human. We are all meant to love each other, and I do love all of you, without prejudice, even if we can't always agree exactly in our opinions or beliefs.
Hi Misty,
Sorry I got here late and thank you for the invite :)
Well, your first sentence said it all. This was certainly controversial, and definitely made so by VP. What shone through this entire dialogue was the voice of respect. There are many roads that will lead to a common goal or belief, and in that respect it's what makes our world go around. I so admire all the commenters here, yes, even VP. This could have been handled in an altogether negative way, such as tossing insults back and forth, deleting comments, etc. That was not the case here. And, it wasn't until VP's last comment that shows me that he is human too, with his own belief system. What works for one doesn't always work for others. It's just nice that in the end, one can respectfully agree to disagree.
A wonderful hub Misty, thumbs up! Grace under pressure :)
Thank you Trish, so much really. We all need to be on the same side ultimately and love the planet we all share. I truly don't believe VP is a bad person, especially if he does all this good stuff for other needy people. We are all rowing with the wrong people, and not recognising that we are actually truly on the same side. I hate to fall out with others, as I love people, and I want them to also love me. If there truly is a God, he wants us to love each other, and hate and arguments are not the answer.!
VP Thank you for the gracious comment you just made to Misty and the respect you showed her - plus the fact that you let us all into your life and we were able to see you in a new light. - really appreciate that. cheers.
Mistyhorizon2003;
Oh, I am so sorry to hear of the awful news. It just breaks my heart. I think that this is an area where it is good to have others who know how it is with domestic violence. This is one area where i leave much of the work to our licensed domestic violence counselor. I believe it is very hard to understand if you have not been there. I have experienced a lot. While accepted in the groups of DV victims, I am not in their comfort zone. There is much to this.
I must say that my major soft spot is domestic violence. We have a member of our ministry that is an abolsute gem with that area of our aid. We also support another ministry that is run by a fully disabled woman who is out of this world.
I have two sisters, and I once got in a fight with two guys three years older than me when I was in 6th grade. They said something bad about my oldest sister. They broke my leg, but no one ever picked on my sisters. The guys were amazed that i was like a Monty Python show or something. There I was with a broken leg wanting to give them some more. I guess I haven't changed much, huh? I feel that it is untolerable for people to physically (or emotionally for that matter) abuse one another. I always did.
I am so very sorry that you went though that. I know that it is very difficult, I really do. If I can help, just send me an email through the hubpages profile. I really do know the sweetest women in the world that work with this. I am not trying to suggest anything, you know? You can help or get help, right? I am not trying to butt in. That is just what I do.
Ajcor;
Thank you. Isn't it remarkable how the great gesture that Misty made turned this whole thing around? Good deeds will be rewarded, and her courage really shined.
Thank you Ajcor, for showing such compassion. and seeing that we are all meant to respect each other. VP is surely not a bad person, we are just on slightly different sides of the fence. The end result should be the same, however it is achieved. I have just joined VP's fanclub (and him mine), and I would not do that if I wasn't open to listening to his opinion, whether I always agree with it or not :)
Thank you so much VP. fortunately for me I no longer have to live with domestic violence, but believe me, I have had attempted strangulation, a bitten nose, been kicked in the ribs and been headbutted many times, to name but a few things. My current Husband is great, but ex boyfriends have been as bad as each other and pretty much only my current Husband and my Late Husband were truly good to me and never beat me up.
my pleasure misty
I'm going to limit my comment to the hub itself. A really interesting idea and the coincidences are just too many across too many examples to be... well, coincidence. Still doesn't explain the "why" of it -- but the evidence sure is stacked high. Great job as always, Ms. Misty!
Thanks MM, but this hub has proven hard work, believe me!!!!
But tell the truth here (just to set the record straight): Your itent really was to discredit Jesus, wasn't it:-)?
Cindy- "15) Neither has any history between the ages of 12 and 30." I have seen a documentary by Discover Channel in which they claimed that Jesus visited India and had been to Present day Jammu & Kashmir in India. It claims that Jesus interacted with Hindu/Budhist Scholars of those days and they have certain "proof"which proves their claims.
Great hub. I sure was enlightened by your indepth research on such a controversial topic.
MM, no, I didn't intend to discredit Jesus as I do actually believe he existed, whether as a Prophet or a Saviour. I simply needed a clarifications to the truth behind this and the teachings of the Bible.
CW, I would love to see more of that documentary. This argument is so tiring, and I have to summon strength for it each time it is raised. It really shouldn't be so hard to understand.
Oh if you read the Bible when they were telling the story of the manger and stuff like that they did mention about some of Jesus's relatives who lived or came from India. There is a book , I think, the name is St Issa of Izza and it is about Jesus and his tutalage in India. I think the book is on the internet somewhere.
Misty nice to see a good debate. (not sure if I would classify this one as healthy) but things have settled down I see.
I personally don't regard myself as a religious person. (dont go to mass etc.) but I believe that I behave in christian manners. (treat others as I would like to be treated, don't commit adultery etc.)
Now I think I've read your Hub pretty thoroughly and I can't find any of your values that I disagree with. So the cunundrum is "am I a Chistrian or a Pagan"?
Thanks LG, tired now, still trying to get my point of view across to Allshookup, and I doubt that will be easy. May have to try again tomorrow when I have more energy to explain why I am not some mad drug dealing, bible hating, fanattic:)
Thanks AG, only you know if you are Pagan or Christian, trust your heart and your research.
Love you always :)
I already came across her in other hubs tonight and of course you know about the one that she came up against me in one of my hubs. I gave her a warning of what gossip is. She is having a problem with me giving out scripture and telling me that I am no a minister because I don't preach the Bible.
Lady Guinevere- I would have to checkout that book from our local library. But there are some christians from India who don't agree that Jesus visited in India when I mentioned this documentary to them (When I didn't even mean that Jesus learnt anything from India). I guess it's better not to discuss strongly in matters relating to Faith. There are some Hindu's who believe strongly in ancient books and there are other Hindus who consider those people 'old school'. Iam sort of a believer without being a strong believer in past texts.
Misty love ya back.
Iv'e got a life to lead without wasting it on old history stuff like that.
I'm more into the here and now and tomorrow. You can't change history.
"God" and myself will be the deciding factor on whether I've been a good person, not zealots on soap boxes!
I was just reading some of the comments and wow it went off in here! I think Paraglider asked something about Jesus' missing story when he was a child and the naghamadi has some stories about the young jesus or you can get the Lost books of the Bible or the Gnsotic Gospels of Jesus as well.
Fancinating reads, gives a more real sense of who Jesus was and his aposltes including Mary, which by the way was Gnostic and they dicussed things like we would today with an application of philosophical reasoning, such as... when a lion dies what does it become? when a human dies what does it become...etc.
ok, I am going back to reading the comments, thought I would jot this down before i forgot. cheers!
CW as I read the book or about the book Jesus didn't learn there he taught there! Maybe I got that wrong becasue it has been a few years since I read of that book. Alot of things and books about or from Jesus is highly controversial. The very life and teachings that Jesus lived were considered heresy by the pople who chose what books went into the Bible. You can check that out on the website The Nazarne Way. Jesus was a Nazarene and they are a sect of the Jewish Religion but all the things about those writing are said the be heresy by the Catholic Church. Heck they went as far as burning the library at Alexandria. It's all control over the masses.
Here is a stie that you can read the Hagmadi and otehr LOST books that were not included in teh books of the Bible:
Sorry here is anothr great one and it has lots of books about all kinds of thing on it: http://reluctant-messenger.com/main.htm
Thanks LG Iam impressed with your knowledge. I guess we all can learn so much if we just are more open about others views and it's sad what happens when people try to alter history to change as per their worldview. I will have to read more of your writings now.
Thanks LG, you have added so much info to this hub. Thanks :)
misty you are on page 1 of the hot hubs with this !!!! you don't have to post this if you don't wish.
Hey thanks Ajcor, if it makes people think a bit harder it has been worth it. Cheers :)
Hi, Misty: Dang! Getting my computer set up has caused me to miss all this. Great hub which has prompted some nice, civilized conservation (NOT!). Wish I could have watched it unfold. Gotta leave a note though:
Viruspropigator: Woah! Can you tap dance too? Rome fell because they worshipped idols? Geez, and this whole time I thought it was just because they were smug ass*oles. Idols and ass*oles. Kind of describes pushy, pedantic, mouth-frothing, religious zealots, don't you think?
Re the 12 to 30 theory. There is opinion that this was the time Jesus underwent his own trials, no different to anyone undergoing intense spiritual practices today. It fits very well with what it takes to become an initiate - it's bloody hard work. There is a novel (because lets face it, most works on the life and times of Jesus are myth), called The Nine Faces of Christ by Eugene Whitworth. It covers the initiation Joseph-Bar-Joseph undergoes within this time period - 12 to 30, as well as earlier times - it opens a space to describe the Nazarene way of living. This book puts a very human face on the man Jesus and bodes well with what you are writing in your hub. A good read if you're interested.
lol Riley, did you mean vilosorapatur? hahahahah
So Chris , why don't you tell us how you really feel?
"Viruspropigator: Woah! Can you tap dance too? Rome fell because they worshipped idols? Geez, and this whole time I thought it was just because they were smug ass*oles. Idols and ass*oles. Kind of describes pushy, pedantic, mouth-frothing, religious zealots, don't you think?"
OK we have "viruspropigator", "vilosorapatur" I'll go with "VenimousPen"
any advances? misty could run a poll!
ag: just having some fun. I think Misty should have a poll.
Damn, I came back too late to enjoy the fun of that flameout. Oh well, everyone is playing nice now, so that's good. I'll leave off picking apart all that stuff above and say only this to VP:
It is interesting that in the course of an exchange of ideas (whether heated or not) that it occurs to you to want to have some sort of debate or credentials duel for the purpose of ridding hubpages permanently of people who challenge your opinions. I mean, debate, sure, but if a singular "neutral" judge chooses one argument over another, the other voice should be forever exiled? Wow, man! That's a thought process that shows a psychology (or perhaps just philosophical bent) teetering on fascism. Burn the heretic and all that rot. Pretty scary stuff if one projects too much of that kind of thinking onto a national or global scale. Imagine if we made everyone who voted for McCain leave the country. Or, perhaps it would be a good thing if everyone who voted No on 8 left California?
So, even if I were inclined to run you off in some sort of contest like that, I wouldn't purely on principle. I think it's healthy to have more than one idea circulating. The more the better.
Mohit Misra (on the Religion forum) recently said something about Jesus visiting and learning from Indian sages. I don't know if he was referencing something or just theorising. It's an interesting thought.
Shades it doe's seem strange that to people like VP everything has to be black or white. Maybe they don't have enough courage in their own convictions that if any little bit of doubt that crept in might change their way of thinking!
Paraglider- I saw a documentary by Discovery Channel where Jesus was supposed to have visited India and also interacted with Hindu/Budhist scholars. He also practised intense meditations in present day Jammu & Kashmir. The british rule destroyed some documents which were pertaining to that "claim" but there are some other proofs like drawings, some tibetan manuscripts, local folklore that lend support to this theory.
Paraglider, I'm not sure either. In this book Nine Faces of Christ it goes through different stages of Jesus' initiation using different traditions, ie Hindu, Celtic and a few more. Now I'm wondering if there is anything documented.
Thanks both. It is an interesting idea. I'll look out for the (inevitable) repeat on Discovery. I don't pretend to have the scholarship (or access) to distinguish between valid and invalid testimonies, but it would certainly explain a few things.
I was searching in Youtube for that discovery video and found this video by BBC(which I think is more reliable compared to some propaganda videos)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvGXsHsFRlc&feature
I found another discovery video which Iam not sure about "the lost tomb" (which is banned in India)
Thanks - I'll check it out tonight (after work!)
Misty It is a pity that religion (and politics) evoke so much emotion. It surprises me that if one writes, one generally has to marshal one's thoughts and I would like to think that that would lead to a lowering of emotions and an increase in intellectual output. This does not neccessarily hold true. Congratulations on the amazing way in which you handled yourself throughout this series of exchanges. The fact that you chose to allow all the comments speaks volumes for your character and integrity.
Grrr I posted the last link when I was very tired and it didn't copy the correct one. Here is that one with all the texts and books: http://www.sacred-texts.com/
Wow. Misty, I enjoyed this hub and all the comments that followed. You did a great job, and you're an incredibly tactful, tolerant, and kind person.
Amanda, you've already expressed my sentiments, so I won't bore anyone with a repeat. :)
Shadesbreath, what a masterful job you did with your comments in defending Misty. My hat's off to you.
I think Jesus was claimed to have been born of a virgin due to an error in translating the bible when "maiden" was changed to "virgin". but the religious folk liked it because it made him sound more Godly, so it stuck.
Interesting hub.
Mistyhorizon2003;
It is sad to see that the posters after we left can't resist the chance to take away from your terrific model of grace and mercy. I will not bother to list those cowards who would never debate me with facts. Instead they delight in insults thinking that will make them popular.
Instead, they should take after you, Misty. You have humbled me with the true model of Jesus which was to rise above. I apologize to you for my initial post. In rereading it, a few words were too harsh.
I completely misread you, too. I exhibited the very prejudice that I so hate in others. I was a fool to be so wrong, and I am grateful that you were able to get me to see that. That is a long story why.
Oh well, it is better to talk about that than to nail the jerks who posted that they do not have a clue, huh? That is not the old me. I will continue to dish it out if it is deserved. However, I refuse to let this terrific lesson you gave us just disappear in the pile of resultant garbage left here by fools.
In heated debates, it can often feel like I am getting ganged up. I think if anyone objectively reads the comments on this hub, they would see clearly that that is exactly what has happened here, deserved or not (you exempted, Misty. You never lowered yourself to my level). Not one word of rebuttal against what I posted has been left to stand as fact. It is typical on hubpages.
Misty, I think you previously made innocent comments of your opinion in the midst of heated debates like this. I misinterpreted them as ganging up on me. I doubt that you meant to do that at all. Again, I am so impressed with your handling of this. Again, I apologize to you, and to those others I say "grow up". Misty can show us all how.
I am far more sorry that the great example you left here was missed by all the folks who twisted my handle and left childish insults at me here with no facts at all. I prefer to leave this with good thoughts of your very classy behavior. Thank you, Misty! By the way, I do not just toss out hypocritical fans either. I meant it, too.
Timeline facts: http://www.enotes.com/peoples-chronology/year-anti
Thank you to everyone who has commented here, and in the interests of Hubpeace, I hope everyone will also not take things that have been said in anger here, away with them and on to future hubs.
Thank you VP for your gracious and heartfelt apology, I truly do appreciate it and respect you hugely for having posted it here rather than simply emailing it to me privately.
We are all guilty of often judging people based on our initial impressions of them, and we don't always get it right, as we are not perfect and we make mistakes. It is doubly difficult to judge someone when you have only their written word to go by, and my bet is that if we were all put in a room together, and had no idea who was who from Hubpages, we would find we got on well with the people we least expected to once conversing and chatting on normal day to day subjects.
Thank you again,
I read through the Horus-Jesus part quickly, as I had seen all of this before and concur, it is quite obvious the similarities are too great for dismissal, however, I believe you need to recheck your facts on Buddha. Buddha was NOT born of a virgin, nor was he born anywhere near December 25th. What were your sources?
Hi Live Online, thanks for commenting. The source for the Buddha information is http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/jesus_similar1.html
It is worth mentioning that there are a number of forms of Buddhism, and often the beliefs vary slightly.
Thanks again.
Misty, here is another great site to get information on various beleif systems: http://www.religioustolerance.org/
I recognise that one LG, I must have visited for research before, possibly on my Ancient Greeks Hub. Thanks for posting the link here though, as you are right, it is a good site.
Lol we don't want to get caught spreading mis-information now do we? (wink, wink)
LOL, I certainly don't ever want to spread mis-information LG. :)
I have another link for you: http://www.eaec.org/cults/romancatholic.htm
Thanks LG, will check it out now :)
That article was really interesting LG. I never knew that so many popes had been so wicked, and I never really thought that it was a bit odd that Mary is worshipped by the RCC until I read this. The article makes it all very clear, and puts it into focus. I find it interesting the way it refers to the Roman Catholic Church as being 'A Cult'. Thanks for the link, it was a fascinating read :)
You are welcome.
Countrywomen I fobd something of the St. Issa. Here is the link for you:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/uljc/uljc20.htm
On that site there were three references to that story as well.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/the/iu/iu109.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/the/iu/iu109.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/ant-1.htm
I have not read through them.
Too much to copy and paste here. Concerning Horus and Jesus similarities.
http://www.freeratio.org/vbb/archive/index.php/t-1
Went there and read, also did a search for Horus and Jesus. There is no evidence supporting the claims made. Books were written yes stating the claims, but no evidence found to support it.
The following I read earlier today, but cleared my cache before I thought and didnt go back and look for the site again. I will find it again though, but I need a little more time.
Osiris was killed and but into 14 pieces. Isis found the pieces except for his private parts. She revived him enough to have sex with her, after fashioning him another penis, so Horus can't be of virgin birth.
VP this is for you to read. I unlike you are not afraid to single out someone.
Your quote:
"Instead, they should take after you, Misty. You have humbled me with the true model of Jesus which was to rise above. I apologize to you for my initial post. In rereading it, a few words were too harsh."
I cannot speak for others but my feeling is that if we had not provoked you with our "taunts" you would not have apologised to Misty.
I have read you comments and do believe you are a good and sincere person, if in some way I have offended you I do apologise, because that was not my intention. I felt that you were trying to put Misty down, and like true friends we came to her defence!
Thanks for commenting Sir Dent. You are right that there is some doubt as to the claim of Isis being a Virgin or not, and that although this has been claimed in various books, there is not, on this particular claim, any evidence that can prove this. These links probably explain it better and the latter one refers to Isis as being permenantly a Virgin and how she impregnated herself with Osiris sperm.: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm#vb
Just to save a bit of time here is information on Isis being a Virgin for anyone who is interested to know more.
Horus was born to a virgin (who remains eternally virginal), Isis-Meri, on December 25 in a cave or a manger. Isis, the goddess of motherhood and fertility, was called 'Mother of Heaven', 'Regina Coeli' (Queen of Heaven) and 'Stella Maris', as is Mary, the mother of Jesus, even today in the Roman Catholic Church: "Graeco-Roman culture was particularly enamoured of [Isis] and called her the Stella Maris (star of the sea), represented in the heavens by the north star ... [Mary's] portraits with the Christ often bear a striking similarity to those of Isis with Horus." Jordan, Michael, The Encyclopedia of Gods: Over 2,500 deities of the world, Kyle Cathie Ltd, London, 1992 Isis bore Horus having impregnated herself with the semen of Osiris after his death (see Legend of Osiris and Isis). In a story reminiscent of the Biblical Moses story, she hid Horus in the papyrus marshes of the Nile Delta, so Horus is sometimes depicted as a falcon upon a column of papyrus. Isis said: "I am she that is the natural mother of all things, the Mistress and Governess of all the Elements, the initial Progenitrix of all things, the Chief of powers divine, Queen of Heaven, the First of the Gods celestial, the light of the Goddesses. At my will, the planets of the air, the wholesome winds of the Seas, and the silences of hell are disposed; my name, my divinity is adored throughout all the world in various manners, in various customs and in many names, for the Phrygians call me the Mother of the Gods ..."Apuleius, The Golden Ass, 1st Century CE His earthly father was named Seb ('Joseph?) and was of royal descent. "Isis seems to have been originally a virgin (or, perhaps, sexless) goddess, and in the later period of Egyptian religion she was again considered a virgin goddess, demanding very strict abstinence from her devotees. It is at this period, apparently, that the birthday of Horus was annually celebrated, about December 25th, in the temples. As both Macrobius and the Christian writer [of the "Paschal Chronicle"] say, a figure of Horus as a baby was laid in a manger, in a scenic reconstruction of a stable, and a statue of Isis was placed beside it. Horus was, in a sense, the Savior of mankind. He was their avenger against the powers of darkness; he was the light of the world."(McCabe, Joseph, The Story of Religious Controversy; cited here) In the catacombs at Rome today can be found pictures of the baby Horus being held by the Virgin Isis-Meri in what scholars have claimed is the original 'Madonna and Child'.Like Jesus, Horus' birth was announced by a star in the east and he was allegedly attended by three wise men. "Osiris’s coming was announced by Three Wise Men: the three stars Mintaka, Anilam, and Alnitak in the belt of Orion, which point directly to Osiris’s star in the east, Sirius (Sothis), significator of his birth." Source
"Furthermore, inscribed about 3,500 years ago [1500 years before Jesus’ alleged advent] on the walls of the Temple at Luxor were images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kneph the 'Holy Ghost,' impregnating the virgin; and with the infant being attended by three kings, or magi, bearing gifts. In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis—the original 'Madonna and Child'.” Source "The Virgin is consecrated to Isis, just as Leo is consecrated to her husband Osiris ... The sphinx, composed of a Lion and a Virgin, was used as a symbol to designate the overflowing Nile ... they put a wheat-ear in the hand of a virgin, to express the idea of the months, perhaps because the sign of Virgin was called by the Orientals, Sounbouleh or Schibbolet, that is to say, epi or wheat ear."Brother Joseph Jerome de Lalande, founder of Lodge Des Neuf Soers (Nine Sisters), Paris; Astronomie par M. de la Lande, 1731 Source
Nice work Misty.
Thanks LG :)
Agvulpes;
I appreciate friends coming to aid friends up to a point. As I said, I was wrong. Thanks for saying that your motive was a good one.
I am not sure what to make of your second paragraph, but I cannot say how things would have turned out. I appreciate your apology.
The title Virgin in ancient texts often describes someone of pure mind, pure of heart. It is not referring to a child conceived without the act of physical sex.
*peers in*
Dang...great, well-researched hub Misty...lots to read after getting your message only to find that the issue is a glowing ember and you handled it all gracefully. :) Sorry I arrived late for the party...are there any half-drunk drinks lying about (w/o cigarette butts in them, please).
Not hanging around tonight though...it's the one year anniversary of my marriage to butthead and we're going out to dinner. :) Catch you all later!
Congrats on your anniversary!
Danke!! ...and they said it wouldn't last! :)
Christoph is looking for you Spryte, he was worried he hadn't seen you around until I told him you were playing World of Warcraft with your Hubby. Congrats on your anniversary by the way.
Hi Jewels, actually you are right, and I have heard it said that the term 'Virgin' as quoted in the Bible actually should have been 'Maiden' as in an unmarried Mother.
I was worried about you, but Misty filled me in and calmed me down.
Blimey Christoph, you must have been hot on my heels.
I think you are following me, but are really fast.
LOL! I saw your comment on the Little Timmy hub and answered that too. Sorry I worried you...but I'm fine, really...and my rogue is now level 71 and my warlock is level 72. Uh...well, it's a crappy excuse, but the best I can come up with.
:)
LOL, I would have to be if I overtook you on the way :)
Okies...gotta dash now. Reservation's for 6:30 p.m. and I haven't had lunch or breakfast so I'm gonna be a little piggy! I may even have a drink!
Thanks Spryte. Clarissa explained it all to me. Have fun!
Misty: That's what I'm talkin about!
spryte have fun!
But I only have little legs Christoph, whereas you have big long manly butch ones to stride ahead of me. I would look like a demented Smurf trying to keep up with you, never mind overtake you :)
One more link and that will be all from me I think. Many links on this page also if anyone wants to follow them. It is exhausting to say the least.
Great hub, mistyhorizon2003! I just saw Religulous a couple of days ago, and in it Bill Maher mentioned just the sort of things you explored in your hub (you covered it in far more detail). I suppose we'll never really know why the story of Christ seems to mirror those of other religious figures. My suspicion is possibility A or C.
Misty this hub has turned into an intellectual tour de force with so much contribution and additional material. The information contained in the comments and links will make for many hours of research and intellectual pursuit.
Thanks so much for being moved to write this hub and I am amazed at it's outcome.
Hi Livelonger, thanks so much for commenting and I am so pleased you enjoyed the hub. :)
Hi Sixtyorso, great to see you here again. I too am amazed at it's outcome, but at lest loads of information is all now in one place for anyone who wants to research the subject further. Thanks for your lovely comment :)
A great book and video to view is "The Power Of The Myth", by Joseph Cambell and he other book that I can't remember the full title but it is something like The man with a thousand faces--or something like that.
Yes, yes, yes, Misty! Bible (at least a good part of it) is copy of other scriptures...Copy /Paste system was popular even 2000 years ago...as we can see, many religions were / are using that system. Good basement for manipulations, isn´t it?
Great article. like many of yours.
Thank you.
Thanks TM, so glad you enjoyed both this and my other articles. Keep coming back as you are always welcome. Agree, it is a good basis for manipulations :)
Thanks Misty fora great Hub. I am always amazed at how much heat and intolerance is generated by religion. You did, as other commentators have mentioned, handle it all very well.
Just one comment by VP that I would like to pick up on - that the United States is a Christian country. Really? I thought separation of church and state was written into their constitution. I know the President uses a Bible when he (when will it be she?) is sworn in, but I have seen somewhere some questions about the constitutionality of that in view of the separation clause.
Anyway great Hub and the comments handled by you and some of the others with great compassion and understanding. Would that there were more of that in the world
Love and peace
Tony
Thanks Tony, I greatly appreciate your lovely comment. :)
A very well-written hub, Misty. It must have taken you hours to research.
I am not going to give an opinion one way or the other because I am too ignorant on these topics. However, while I was researching one of my hubs on a different topic, I ran across an internet article some of your readers may be interested in --- Tektonics Did the Mithraic Mysteries Influence Christianity http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html
Thanks for commenting Seamist, yes I remember that site and I did include it originally in my links section (it is the second site down), and thanks for posting the link here too so that others can check it out when forming their own views.
Seamist, that is an interesting site there. The first thing that I noticed was that it said thet Mithra died for world peace, .....but Jesus said that he was here not for world peace.
Tonymac04;
There is no such provision as separation of church and state in the United States Constitution. Actually, the Constitution prohibits the government from interfering with religion but not the other way around. Tony, that is a ver common misperception today. That is the First Amendment. It says;
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
VP: As long as religious institutions stay out of politics, they are allowed tax-exempt status. The question for religious people is: do you want your church to exert more influence in politics, or do you want it to retain its tax-exempt status? It can not have it both ways.
Livelonger;
That is beside the point. The point was separation of church and state which does not exist.
There are, in fact, guidelines what nonprofits, like churches, can do with politics. For example, a church can have a political rally as long as both candidates are invited. The rules are listed in the IRS guidelines. They are nowhere near as simple as you suggest, though.
Also, IRS guidelines have been challenged by 20 churches a month or so ago. The IRS did not act against those churches that preached purposeful political messages. Those courageous pastors realize that there is no foundation for the IRS rules, since it is in fact unconstitutional for the government to restrict religion.
Are you sure about that VP--seems to me there was a hulabalou about the IRS can't charge taxes either and it was a hoax and people lost lots of money and some went to jail. On another hub post those accusations and guidelines you just made with evidence of such.
Lady G;
Yes I am sure. What part confused you? This has nothing to do with people not paying taxes, although I agree that that is unconstitutional, too, but I do not want to get off on that. I am personaly not in a good position to hire the legal counsel to fight the IRS. I follow their guidelines personally. I was simply posting to an earlier post about separation of church and state.
You can look up the IRS nonprofit guidelines yourself if you are thinking I am wrong.
No thanks.
Wonderful Hub! Awesome research! This is the proof that the church adopted and conformed to pagan beliefs in order to gain power. At least one third of the bible is influenced by macho pagan myth.
Thanks again!
Thanks Tom, so very pleased you enjoyed this hub and follow what I believe is the truth behind the story of most major religious icons. :)
Well I just found out about alot of things they tell you that it comes from GOD in that Bible that did not --concerning sex. Imagine that!!
Feel free to post a link to your latest hub on this here LG :)
Thanks Misty! You are a real sweetheart! http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Good-Book-Of-Love aand the one just before that that inspired that one: http://hubpages.com/hub/Why-Pornography-is-Bad-for There are video's in both too.
You are very welcome LG, I know these are worth reading :)
I guess from my jaded point of view all these religions were there to answer fundamental questions wqhich at the time were unanswerable. we discover answers as we grow as a species. Having no religion means freeing the mind to prepare for receiving the real truth. I'd rather know the truth, bleak and pointless as it may be, than to be spoon fed nonsense that has nothing but faith and hope making it real for those who believe in it.
I like your hub.
Thank you Ivan, I am really glad you liked the hub, and like you, I only desire to know the real truth, not what we are brainwashed into believing by the church.
Cindy, I think this is the longest series of replies I have ever seen on here and it has certainly stimulated a lot of thought, which to my way of thinking is excellent!
Personally after much seeking the correct path as a younger man and having prayed to Jesus as well as having chanted Hare Krishna I now find myself as having no need to do any of it. I often wonder why we need a "Son of God" or a "Saviour" by any of the names quoted here or even why we need gods or goddesses? I note that the animals have no need for religion and yet they live as they were meant to and they are in tune with the divine nature!
I believe in a God/Goddess that could also be called Eternal Creator or simply Great Spirit and that's it for me. I share your search for the truth though. I tend to think that Jesus as portrayed was indeed based on earlier stories of gods. This does not mean that Jesus existed or didn't exist but just that the story of Jesus and words attributed to him were concocted from other sources.
Great Hub, Misty
Sad that I missed this one the first time around - it was quite an intense and interesting discussion. Pretty much agree with you about everything - most religious texts share a lot of overlap, and trying to separate them from each other is weak historical research.
There is a lot of evidence that Mithras was imported from Zoroastrianism :)
Thanks Steve, it is great to have your feedback and wisdom inputted on here, I do believe in Jesus, but have my doubts as to accuracy of the Bible as it appears there is much evidence to support it's content having been manipulated or adapted from Pagan sources.
Thanks Sufidreamer, great reply, and I too am sorry you missed this first time around, as I am sure your input would have been very valuable. The Mithras connection is especially controversial, but certainly bears consideration and further research.
Hi Misty,
As a Christian Pastor and as one who has taken the time to study, in-depth, the theories put forth by those who believe in Christ-myths, my own opinion is that they do not hold water.
To date I've looked into almost 200 supposed dieties that 'mimic the life of Christ' and have found all of them to be wanting -- especially those of egyptian concoction since most egyptian religious scholars fail to note any correlation between Christ and their own 'special interest' deity (and even those who do only do so in as a passing note of interest).
While it would be impossible on this comment to note all that I've found I would direct any interested to a good source of information concerning alleged parallels between Christianity and pagan religions": http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html.
I was very happy to have found the aforementioned site after I began attempting to consolidate my own thoughts to post herein. While I don't agree with everything Mr. Holding proposes I certainly think his research and footnotes bear looking at for anyone interested in a link between Christ and 'other gods.'
I especially like the 'proof' given that Winston Churchill never existed. You can find that at: http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/pagint.html
you folks are so amazingly insightful!hears an opinion from a smaller mind.the god of genesis creats from will alone.we all know about the hickup in the creation of people(created twice).from the creation of adam thru out the old testement god makes everything from something else,his demeaner changes as well.he aquires human emotions.in the new testement christ reintroduces the original god of genesis it appears.olso,its interesting that adam was not aware of his nakedness untill he ate from the tree.could this be a symbolic account of mankind achieving self awareness.the christian gnostics think so.heres an alternative view.maby the god of the old testement went to anger management or having a child mellowed him out cause he sure changed between the old and the new testement...peace
If I wanted to make a story look fake, id make up other stories BEFORE it so it looks like the one after was fake, Even the demons know the scripture, the Bible says, and yeah yeah yeah, its got people with good faith confussed
Hi, who is interested in this subject can find very valuable information in second part of the book 'Man and His Symbols'- The Ancient Myths and Modern Man, written by Dr. Henderson. Actually, I am reading this part right now and I came across the bull sacrifice by Mithras which led me here through the painting above. Dr. Henderson tells conenctions between Opherus, Dionysus and Christ. Man and His Symbols can be found on net as pdf. By the way Dr. Carl Jung's part of 'Approaching the Unconcious' has high value either.
Thanks Tec, sounds well worth reading, this information could be very useful.
I enjoyed this HUB very much. Why people get so wound up? You just pointed out some things from your research. Ultimately we all choose and decide what rings true to us.
I love DIONYSIS by the way and the BACCHAE who followed him. Ergo: my name DENNIS which corresponds to Dionysis in Greek. Keep up the writing. And be daring. Blessings. The pics are beautiful. Maybe check out a hub of mine? I will read more of yours.
Awww, thanks Mike, somehow I always dread reading any comments I get notifications about on this hub, as it just as likely to be some "Bible Basher" having a go at me as it is someone who genuinely recognises my valid points and research. Comments like yours are so refreshing.
Hi Misty,
I haven't been on the Hubpages in awhile but since I'm investigating certain claims concerning Christ and the Christ-myth I thought I'd take a moment to suggest that anyone who is interested might want to take an hour or two to visit the following sites:
Horus: http://www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/JesusHorus.html
Horus and many others: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html
Horus and Osiris-Dionysis: http://tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html
Isis, Osiris, Serapis, Mithras, Buddha, Krishna: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycatwho2.htm
A Historically Plausible Explanation of How the Alleged Borrowing Occurred: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat2.html
Anup the Baptizer: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/anup.html
Take care!
Pastor Lonnie (RevLon)
No worries PastorLonnie, all information is useful in coming up with an overall belief. :)
Excellent hub! Did you read The Jesus Mysteries? It's all about this and is absolutely fascinating especially if you have an open mind! By the way, "the trickery of the devil" argument" doesn't hold water with me. Congratulations on a very well researched article and having the courage to post it! Kartika
Thank you Kartika, I haven't read the Jesus Mysteries, but they sound really interesting. Glad you enjoyed the article too :)
You might also be interested in a quote from a post I made in response a forum thread a few weeks back regarding the Bible as the mistranslations etc, the quote was as follows,:
"The Bible was written by men, not by God, and is open to misinterpretation, mistranslation and manipulation by the Church, (and King James VI of Scotland and King James I of England, the same person, overhauled much of the Bible to read the way he thought it should). Also after the civil war in Britain, England was under puritan rule, headed by Oliver Cromwell, who enforced a very extreme version of the Protestant faith, and it was under this regime that "witch" hunting, (under which term we can almost certainly include persons with mediumistic / psychic abilities), reached its zenith, and thousands of innocent women and children were killed needlessly.
The original Pilgrim Fathers would have brought many of these ideas with them to the USA as they left Britain when many of these leanings were very strong and enforced."
Misty, I love your quote. Did you surmise that or did you get it from another source. I would love to put it in some of my hubs.
You are more than welcome to use it LG. I had a chat with my older Sister Hayley and we came up with it together,(she is a mine of information on this subject). Great to see you here by the way :)
Thank You and Thank You.
Any time LG :)
Hi Misty, I agree - in my case, you're preaching to the choir! LOL I think of the Bible as fiction - that doesn't mean it has no value, I just think taking it literally is absurd! At least I won't be burned at the stake for stating this heretical view, but I'm sure, I'm making lots of people mad. Kartika
I think I might need to jump into one of these forums
LOL Kartika, I can see you and LG (above me) are going to get on like a house on fire. Be warned, the religious forums get very nasty and spiteful, and not at all "Christianlike", so if you venture there, go well armed and with a VERY thick skin :) Good Luck :)
I Just stumbled on to your hub and I see it very well researched..however, the part about The Buddha being born by a virgin? Were do you get that? He was born a prince and I have never read that he was born from a virgin. I have studied Buddhism for about seven years and have never heard or read about him being born from a virgin, Not saying it is not so, I just have not seen it written. I found it also interesting what you found about Horus who is one of my favorite Egyptian gods. He was the son of Ra and the messenger god..and yet, he came from a whole FAMILY of gods!With not only BROTHERS (Like Set) but SISTERS (like Bass). There is ANOTHER god that you missed and I am writing a whole series of hubs on HIM called "The Feathered Christ." This is the link to those hubs if you want to read them. http://www.hubpages.com/hub/The-Feathered-Christ
I shall read your hub Highvoltagewriter, I am sure it will be fascinating stuff.
To answer your questions about the source of my information, the sites I used are in the links section above, and this is where you will find the references to Buddah, Horus etc. Specifically the Buddah being born of a vigin Mother (maya) is referred to on this page:
http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/jesus_similar1.html
where it says:
"The Buddha was of royal descent. Born of the Virgin Maya (“the Queen of Heaven”) on December 25th, announced by a star and attended by wise men presenting costly gifts. At his birth Brahma angels sang hymns. An aged holy woman beseeched the heavens to bless the child.
"In Buddhism the virgin birth concept occupies a central place and the suggestion of immaculate conception is also made. Buddha's future mother, Mahamaya, refrained form sexual activity and other worldly pleasures during the mid-summer festival and was taken off during a dream to the Himalayas. There she was purified by water to remove every human stain before being placed upon a divine couch ... After the conception, no lustful thought sprang up in the mind of future Buddha's mother ... The meaning usually ascribed to Buddha's birth legend centres on the fact that he chose to be born of a woman so as to become human himself, which would enable him to inspire other humans with the possibility of achieving perfection."
Thanks for the feedback and for your link :)
Just a quick PS Highvoltagewriter. Various references can be found on the internet to Horus being "the only begotten Son of the God Osiris", (easiest way to find them is to do a google search for that exact phrase). Just one I found is able to be viewed here:
Really nice hub. Thank you for outlining this so I didn't have to! I'll be following you from now on, and I'll be directing my own followers to come check out your site.
Thanks pay2cEM, glad you enjoyed it and found it beneficial. :)
The Egyptian saviour: the chief deity of death, and the only god to rival the solar cult of Re. Sacred to him was Zedu, a town which took its name from his fetish–several sheaves placed one above the other. There along the luxuriant waterways of the delta Osiris was lord of flood and vegetation as well as the king and judge of the dead. From Anubis, the earlier dog-headed or jackal god of death, he acquired the jackal symbol just as in Upper Egypt the recumbent dog connected with the dead, Khenti-Amentiu, was merged with him at Abydos, where it was believed that Osiris' head had been buried. In Egypt the gods had no special abode such as the Olympus of the Greeks; for the local residences of deities remained the same down the ages, with the exception of those gods absorbed by the greater members of the pantheon.
Osiris was depicted as a bearded man, either green or black in colour, wearing the Crown of Upper Egypt, and swathed like a mummy. In his hands were a flail and a crook, insignia of the chthonic power vested in this dying and rising god. Credited with the introduction of agriculture and several crafts, Osiris was also the initiator of religious rituals, especially the mysteries surrounding the process of embalmment and mummification. At Zedu the mummy of Osiris himself was to be seen. The preservation of the body was regarded as essential for eternal life. Without a body there could be no survival after death. In addition to the body the Egyptians acknowledged the existence of a ba and a ka. While the ba was the soul, and pictured as a bird with a human head, the ka acted as a kind of guardian double of the body which was born with it and stayed on as a companion in the world of the dead.
At first only the pharaohs became Osirises on death, being identified with the god of the dead as their successors were with Horus, the son of Osiris. From the third millennium BC onwards all men able to pass the judgement of good and evil might achieve such salvation. Before Osiris and his forty-two assessors stood the scales of judgement, attended by Anubis, who placed the soul in the balance against the feather of truth, while the record-keeper Thoth inscribed on his palette the result of the weighing. For the unfortunate waited a monster, part crocodile, part lion, and part hippopotamus: it was Am-mut, ‘eater of the dead’. In Egyptian cosmology the ‘other land’ of the departed was situated on the western horizon, where daily the sun disappeared with its light and life-giving warmth, and from which point descended on the Nile valley not only darkness but the chill winds of the rapidly cooling deserts.
In myth Osiris is drowned, dismembered, and scattered over land and water. He was shut in a chest or sarcophagus and dumped in the Nile by his brother Seth. ‘The drowned one’ floated down the river through one of the mouths of the delta into the Mediterranean Sea, and was carried to the port of Byblos. There he was discovered by Isis, his wife and sister, and daughter of the earth god Geb. Out of envy for the happiness of Osiris and Isis arose the undying enmity of Seth, who soon seized the coffin containing the dead god, cut the corpse into more than fourteen pieces, and scattered them throughout the land of Egypt. Again Isis sought her husband and with the assistance of Nut, the mother of Osiris, she resurrected the body, all except his genitals; these had been consumed by fishes. The reborn god, however, did not stay on earth, but became the lord of the departed in the infertile ‘other land’. Another legend suggests Isis buried each piece of Osiris where she found it, thus spreading the potency of the god everywhere. Horus, the son Isis miraculously conceived of the dead god, was to be the avenger.
As a prototype of the resurrected dead man, Osiris and his cult spread widely, and during the Roman Empire assumed the form of a major religious sect in many provinces. One view of the origin of the myth is that the god was an historical king who at a remote period reigned over Egypt from his capital in the delta. His violent death could have been the result of an insurrection by Ombos, the city sacred to Seth in Upper Egypt. The divided kingdom according to this version was reunited by the king's son, deified as Horus, who slew the rebellious Seth. An alternative explanation places emphasis on the death and resurrection of Osiris, the vegetation god reborn through the annual inundation of the Nile.
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Dictionary: O·si·ris (?-s?'r?s)
Top Home > Library > Literature & Language > Dictionary
n. Mythology
The ancient Egyptian god whose annual death and resurrection personified the self-renewing vitality and fertility of nature.
Britannica Concise Encyclopedia: Osiris
Top Home > Library > Miscellaneous > Britannica Concise EncyclopediaOsiris
Ancient Egyptian god of the underworld. Osiris was slain by the god Seth, who tore apart the corpse and flung the pieces all over Egypt. According to some accounts, the goddess Isis, consort of Osiris, and her sister Nephthys found the pieces and gave new life to Osiris, who became the ruler of the underworld. Isis and Osiris then conceived Horus. In the Egyptian concept of divine kingship, the king at death became Osiris and the new king was identified with Horus. Osiris also represented the power that brought life out of the earth. Festivals reenacting his fate were celebrated annually in towns throughout Egypt.
For more information on Osiris, visit Britannica.com.
Classical Literature Companion: Os?ris
Top Home > Library > Literature & Language > Classical Literature CompanionOs?ris, most widely worshipped of the Egyptian gods, representing male fertility in nature and incarnated in the sacred bull Apis. According to myth he had been a pharaoh of Egypt who had civilized and educated his people but had been murdered and his body cut in pieces by his brother Set (identified with the Greek Typhon). Isis, his sister and wife, collected and buried his mangled remains, and with her son Horus took revenge on Set, the author of all evil. Thereafter Osiris was regarded as the god of the dead, but the source, through Horus (the Sun), of renewed life. The Greeks identified him with Dionysus. See also SERAPIS and HARPOCRATES.
Archaeology Dictionary: Osiris
Top Home > Library > Science > Archaeology Dictionary
[Di]
Egyptian god, one of the great gods of Egypt, a member of the Heliopolitan Ennead. Judge of the dead and king of the underworld. God of resurrection. His main place of worship was at Abydos, but he was universally revered. He may have had his origins in a king of Egypt who was later deified. The murder of Osiris by his brother Seth, Isis's quest for the body, the struggle of his son Borus to avenge his father's death on Seth, and the eventual resurrection of Osiris, has become one of the greatest legends of Egypt. Osiris was called Unnefer (Greek: Onnophris), the permanently happy one. He had festivals at Abydos, and an annual miracle play. Episodes from his mysteries were re-enacted at many Egyptian temples, and the late period temples of Dendera, Edfu, and Philae all have chapels dedicated to Osiris.
Columbia Encyclopedia: Osiris
Top Home > Library > Miscellaneous > Columbia EncyclopediaOsiris (?s?'r?s), in Egyptian religion, legendary ruler of predynastic Egypt and god of the underworld. He was the son of the sky goddess Nut and the earth god Geb. The great benefactor of mankind, Osiris brought to the people knowledge of agriculture and civilization. In a famous myth he was treacherously slain by his evil brother Set, who cut his body into 14 pieces and spread the fragments throughout Egypt. Thereupon, Isis, sister and wife of Osiris, sought and found his scattered body. She buried the pieces, making each b
Enjoyed your article. Similarities are indeed striking. To me, coming form India they do not look so surprising. I visit often USA. I consider it a second home country for me.
I also wrote some articles about similar aspects. Unlike eastern countries (India, China, Japan etc.), followers of religions which originated in middle east (Christians, Muslims etc. ) are very conscious about their holy book, since there is only one for them and it plays important role in their religious practices. So it is very difficult to discuss about these aspects freely.
Fortunately for Europe and USA Christians overcame some of this consciousness during renaissance period and after, though still it is a touchy subject. Internet might help a little to bring some more freedom.
Just two more points and some links.
Just as Highvoltagewriter says I had also never heard Buddha being born to a virgin. Though I am not surprised that some stories say so. After Buddha's death Buddhism got divided into various sects. There were many stories generated about him and his life and earlier lives in previous births etc. Some of them are called Jataka Kathas. I wonder whether the one you are referring to is some thing like that.
Incidentally just to draw some more funny similarities between religious mythologies, two gods Indians (Hindus) worship a lot Krishna and Rama (though they lived in different time period Krishan is supposed to have lived about 5000 years back and Rama several 100 thousand years back, the days when humans could communicate with monkeys) have also some interesting similar stories about their births. For example Krishna was born in a jail but was exchanged in an unusual mysterious way brought up by some other couple etc.
Just like you I have also wondered why all religion mythologies have such stories about unusual births of Gods, Angels, Messengers or Goddesses.
I had once read an article which was drawing a lot of similarities between Krishna and Christ (even name of Krishna in old Sanskrit is Krista).
Some links which discuss similar aspects though in a different style
http://hubpages.com/hub/religions-and-science-Indi
Definitely a lot of similiarities! I have always thought this with my research....Thanks for the hub!
Thanks for commenting Michael, I am pleased you enjoyed the hub.
If all people actually read the Bible and understood it by the power of the Holy Spirit (as it can only be understood because it is Spiritually Discerned) then they would know (children in Sunday school know this!) that: A)The writer's of the Bible were Spirit led, so God actually oversaw it's writings. B) The Bible warns us over and over again "let no man deceive you", for there are many "false Christs & false prophets in the world"...and many will give way to "seducing spirits and false doctrines". Now if trusting in Jesus alone is too much to handle for some people, then it's so obvious that they are "open" to the wiles of Satan. The writers of the Bible would not write such a compilation of "stories" which so strongly would condemn their own actions (themselves), "condemns" mankinds' sins, actions and behaviours. Lastly, remember, Satan was cast to this earth "before" God created it (He was in the serpent in the garden, remember Genesis?). Therefore he has had lots of time (and still does, although his time is getting short), to create every conceiveable lie he can to discredit the Gospel, as he does today. Revelation reveals how Satan tries so hard to duplicate the "Holy Trinity" with his "false trinity" Satan vs. God,...Antichrist vs. Jesus, and the False Prophet vs. The Holy Spirit. So...if you "need" to continue to explore the endless line of false doctrines that exits in this world today instead of simply saying "Lord Jesus, I don't understand "everything" but I am content to trust and leave it all up to you", then you are on the path of the "wide gate" to destruction.
Hi misty:
We all love a little research. Here's some of mine about the author you are citing, Tom Harpur...
Apologetics Press :: In the News
Reviewing Tom Harpur’s The Pagan Christ
by Kyle Butt, M.A.
Printer version | Email this article
"In 2004, former Anglican priest and prolific author Tom Harpur wrote a book titled The Pagan Christ. The thesis of Harpur’s work is that the story of Jesus was never meant to be viewed as that of a real, historical person. Instead, the story of Jesus is a “myth” that has deep spiritual meaning only when it is seen as an allegory that represents the divine spark that lives, dies, and comes back to life in each of our hearts. In fact, Harpur suggests that the Jesus story is simply the copying of myths from Egypt that were around thousands of years before the first century. He stated: “I will clearly document that there is nothing the Jesus of the Gospels either said or did...that cannot be shown to have originated thousands of years before, in Egyptian Mystery rites and other sacred liturgies such as the Egyptian Book of the Dead” (2004, p. 10). Harpur concludes that “[l]iteral, descriptive narrative inevitably leads to either idolatry or utter nonsense,” thus the stories about Jesus’ life and work recorded in the gospel accounts cannot be taken literally.
While reading Harpur’s book, it quickly becomes apparent that the “clear documentation” for his claims is wanting. He rarely includes an original source for the alleged parallels between the stories of Jesus and other myths. He relies heavily on secondary sources, and even then he fails to cite specific page numbers or the immediate contexts of the quotes he uses. In addition, his oft-repeated allegation that the story of Jesus is simply a hodge-podge of reiterated ancient myth has been definitively refuted (see Butt and Lyons, 2006), along with his charge that Jesus was not a historical person (see Butt, 2000).
In addition, Harpur makes much of the fact that the birth of Christ has traditionally been celebrated on the 25th of December. He stated:
The evidence that Christianity was in its beginning firmly rooted in the Egyptian-style, equinoctial mode of thinking still abounds today. The birthday of Jesus Christ was first celebrated by the earliest Church in the spring of the year. But in 345, Pope Julius decreed that the birthday (nobody knew any precise date for it, suggesting again that the entire thing was pure myth) should thenceforth be held on December 25, three days after the “death” of the winter solstice and the same day on which the births Mithras, Dionysus, the Sol Invictus (unconquerable sun), and several other gods were traditionally celebrated (2004, pp. 82-83, emp. added).
This quote provides yet another classic example of the way Harpur reasons. First, we are never given a source that documents his assertion that Christians first celebrated Jesus’ birth in the Spring of the year. Second, Harpur never supplies the first hint of an original source that the birthdays of Mithras, Dionysus, or Sol Invictus were celebrated on December 25. And third, his entire discussion is moot if we are trying to assess the story of Jesus found in the New Testament, since never once is a date mentioned for Jesus’ birth, nor is any celebration of his birth recorded or enjoined."
Here's my source: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/240302
Just because an author is published doesn't make their ideas true. Harpur is the source for these "comparisons" between Christ and these other gods. Harpur has NO substantiation for his citations. None. Period. It's just fiction being sold as fact. Sensationalism in publishing is NOT new and neither is this pathetic attempt by that author to enrich himself at the expense of his hood-winked readers.
HubCrafter
Thanks for the information Hubcrafter, it makes for an interesting read. Obviously as you must know there are many questions raised about the similarities between the apparent Christ story and other well known and worshipped Gods that are not as a result of Tom Harpur's writings. Sadly I guess to find the actual truth the only solution is to die and see what comes next. I appreciate your comment and the information contained within it, although for me I am still of an open mind because of the other similarities out there that there seems no explanation for.
Allegations are not facts.
Show me the research.
Books, television programs and speakers who must constantly resort to words like: "perhaps", "maybe", "no one knows" and such ilk are just speculating. If something is unknown, it's not known. But to leap from "maybe" to assertions of truth without the facts makes them unreliable.
There are many examples of books in print today which have gained notoriety..but have no basis in fact. Publishers, anxious to make a buck, have willingly published fiction as if it were fact. Sensationalism is not new. Neither is the willingness of some to accept whatever they read simply because it's in print.
Well I guess that I am of the opinion that forgetting books for a moment, these are frequently things taught in many religions by their "priests, holy men" etc. As a Pagan myself, I see many religious festivals in Christianity are "taken" from ancient Pagan celebrations, even the image of a cross stems back to Pagan times. As a Pagan I do believe in Jesus, (not unusual), but, (returning to books for a moment), doubt the majority of the Bible is anything other than the words of men, not of Jesus. In fact you summed it up very well in your comment "Sensationalism is not new. Neither is the willingness of some to accept whatever they read simply because it's in print." and "There are many examples of books in print today which have gained notoriety..but have no basis in fact."
I respect your opinion and beliefs, and I recognise your information has merit from what I can see. I have no desire to get into heated debate on a hub as I already avoid the religious forums because the squabbling and fighting reeks of everything I hate about religious differences. No-one ever appears to change their opinions, so what is the point of the arguments and what stands to be gained?
Anyway, must close for now as it is past 02.00am here, (very late and time for bed). Goodnight for now. Peace.
Hi Hubcrafter, I responded to your question and left the following answer:
mistyhorizon2003 says
"Well, I did respond, but you didn't answer it in time. Meanwhile I decided to delete the comments section due to my main committment being my vegetable allotment right now, (and I believe the religious forums are the best location for those who enjoy scrapping verbally over religion). You no doubt know by now I have replied to you saying as much, only I chose to do it by direct mail, not by trying to gain support by making my response a public question, (I have to say so many Christians seem to spoil for a fight that it does nothing positive for the credibility of Christianity). I am a former Christian, but don't go around attacking other's religious choices, and detest this technique used by "die hard Christians", (even when this seems a very 'un-christian way to behave)."
*********
I see you then left the following response to me, I quote:
HubCrafter says
"Your Hub's ideas are based upon a popular book that makes sensational claims about Jesus Christ. I did the research and showed those claims to be false and unsupported by facts in my comment. I cited my sources so that anyone could read them and decide for themselves.
You wrote: "You no doubt know by now I have replied to you saying as much, only I chose to do it by direct mail."
-No. You never wrote me or contacted me by any form of mail. Why you say this is beyond me.
"I decided to delete the comments section due to my main committment being my vegetable allotment..."
After a hearty laugh, I thought it best to let you explain...what the heck you're talking about, lol.
"..don't go around attacking other's religious choices..."
You made the choice to publish this hub. Your choice was to attack other people's religious beliefs. After agreeing, in YOUR comment, that you accepted the cited research authors and that many good points were raised....you deleted the entire comments section from this hub.
I didn't talk about religion. I quoted authors and cited sources.
This is the real world; a world where publishers fiercely compete to survive. Since the sixties, the latest readership "prey" they've found are the gullible; those willing to believe any crazy thing JUST because it's in print.
Your favorite author's very poular book is part of that craze."
**********
Well.....
I know I told you I avoid religious debates as they are usually futile, but your response there left me unable to leave your comments unanswered, so I shall address them here:
Firstly my hub was not based upon any book, but was based on comparisons that have been drawn over many years, even prior to any book you quote, although the book in question that you refer to may also have cited these similarities. Indeed it is possible the same book made errors, I cannot say, as I have never read the book you refer to.
Yes, I did reply to you by direct mail, but cannot understand why you might not have received it unless one of our servers failed in some way to deliver it. I certainly would not say I had replied to you by direct mail if I hadn't.
As for my quote about being busy with my vegetable allotment being a reason to delete my comments section giving you a "hearty laugh", I made it pretty clear that I did not have the time to engage in futile and endless debates, and that at this time of year my allotment takes priority. This may be more understandable for you if you realise my allotment is about 200 metres long by about 8 metres wide, and I weed, sow seeds, mulch and harvest etc every part of it on my own, therefore it is a full time job in the warmer months, and this is why I write and interact on hubpages far more in the cold months. Not really very funny as it makes perfect sense that weeds etc do not wait for me to finish an endless religious debate with a commenter.
I left this comments section up for a couple of days after replying to your comment, and as I had not received a reply by then I assumed you had read my response and decided not to continue the discussion. At this point I chose to remove the comments section in order to avoid further comments that would again take precious time away from my gardening when I was forced to respond to them as if I didn't, it could be misinterpreted as my "not being able to defend my position", when actually I just didn't have the time to further research my responses at this time of year. I never deleted the comments, only temporarily decided not to show that capsule, (in order to be able to show it again in the future when I was less busy).
Much of the information in this hub with regards to stories common to both Christ and other deities can be found simply by researching the deities in question individually, and are not unique to any one book.
Oh, for the record I did not "attack" anyone's beliefs. I simply gave people the option to draw the comparisons for themselves and make a decision. This did not actually require a comments section at all, as I don't need to know what conclusion these readers draw, (that is their own business). Like I explained to you, I do believe in Jesus, but not necessarily what is written in the Bible, (as this seems likely to be the words of men, not of Jesus himself), and this would explain the similarities between Jesus life story and other well respected deities. As you will see from a number of the comments left, there are many who acknowledge that the stories have been duplicated many times in different religions, (and surely not all of these people have read the Tom Harpur book!!)
What an interesting Hub.
You know, most of what is written in The Bible was passed down by word of mouth, so it can't possibly be accurate. Most of it, if not all, probably isn't even true.
Enjoyed the read! Real food for thought.
Thanks Jayne, I am very much inclined to agree with you the more I learn throughout my life.
The problem is that mankind has been fooled on an extraordinary level (more than just conspiracy). We are taught to live in the physical and not the spiritual. Religion is the problem with spirituality ironically enough. the true understanding of who we are as the human race is being hidden from us, because it will upset the apple cart so to speak.
The study of a particular race of people will bring one so much closer to the truth. but that race has been villafied, and discounted. just as the bible predicts. there are many truths hidden in the ancient and mythical truths of the past. the key is to study the original forms of spirituality. which can be found in the history of the world's oldest race. it's not about colour, but at the same time it is. we've all been taught to fear that knowledge. to treat it as foreign. it is the true nature and history of ALL mankind. don't fear it embrace it. in alot of the Egyptian pyramids one of the KEY teachings was "know thy self". that saying can be found rooted in almost all religions. i challenge all of you to search history from 1 persprective. you start from the true beginning and you will find yourselves in that journey.
Excellent and thought provoking comment foxxsden, thanks for making it.
Very insightful. As members of this race we are and should be open to all things. In the beginning was God... so each life has a new beginning. With that said the story continues. Thank you for sharing.
Love and light
Great hub! Are you really still open-minded after all that information? Slightly tongue-in-cheek question, "how much information do you need to be convinced?" Hmmm. Thanks.
Hi Shaun, if I am totally honest, since doing all the research I did end up feeling very much like this is a story shared by many religious icons and that the bulk of the evidence does seem to point towards the fact that much of the Christ story has been 'hijacked' from far more ancient icons. However, I do still believe Christ existed and that whatever his story actually was we will never truly know. The trouble with men writing things down, is that inevitably they will put their own slant on to things, make omissions, corrections, use artistic license, embellish facts, mistranslate, manipulate etc etc. There are no doubt large chunks of the story that are accurate, but there are equally likely to be large chunks that are not.
Thanks for commenting and I am glad you enjoyed the hub :)
Fascinating discussion here and funny enough I can't resist adding a comment commending all the people involved here, and the author of the hub comparing the narrative of Jesus to other figures throughout history. In my world of both real human beings, scholarship, and discourse all people's autonomy and beliefs are respected and honored even when they differ from my own and even when they challenge me to the core. To allow ourselves to question and be challenged is a wonderful and rare gift, and is a sign of a more mature human being who continues on the path of learning.
Personally? As someone who is deeply interested in spiritual phenomena and who has made a life long study of how people construct their sense of personal, social and cultural meaning (what we call spirituality, and in its more institutional forms relating to theology, dogma and religious systems), the last questions posed in the hub tell me the most about the underlying epistemological (philosophical) assumptions that generate the questions themselves. In other words, the author may be coming from a somewhat traditional contemporary western empirical, phenomenological, and humanistic stance (in broad terms, and not being particular, but naming only three layers of modernism which are of particular merit within this quite postmodern time of social and cultural change and upheaval).
In other words, the underlying meaning or values or philosophy or epistemology generate the questions we raise about meaning. For example, why rely exclusively on the notion of "fact" per se? This notion arises within a largely post industrial enlightenment context in the west that prizes empirical and determined reality. However, there are many other forms of knowing or epistemology. By expanding our underlying values or philosophy (I am not talking about beliefs here, but the very way our values construct our approach to forming beliefs in the first instance), we open ourselves to understanding the emergence of human intelligence itself within our own mind and consciousness. For instance, we know from experience that knowledge is not just facts or black and white truth verses fiction. Knowing as an experience is relational, contextual, cultural, social, inter-generational, intuitive, visionary, inspiring, conflictual, challenging, and is both step-wise and integrative. Overtime knowing draws on synthesis and transformation - which is why the whole field of transpersonal psychology proposes that knowledge itself is one component of human growth and potential.
Again, if we expand into other cultural views which also exist within the western heritage but have largely been overlooked and suppressed for centuries, we can open ourselves to experience other approaches, for example we may also rely more on symbolic meaning, metaphor, or the inherent value of how stories (legends or myths) contain many instructive and helpful layers of meaning and within these, many cultural associations given to assist people on their human path of growth and learning.
By adding this instructive measure here, I only wish to convey a sense of respect to all people in keeping with what (to me) are the central vital and life-giving meanings of the "Jesus Stories" shared in this hub. I am not commenting on anything else here but the core metaphorical teachings these stories convey - that we each are human beings on a path of learning, growth and potential. As human beings we are all in some metaphoric way born of a virgin; we all are born in a cave; we all grow up and become learners and sharers and colleagues; and we all struggle with the human condition in many and varied ways that all symbolically lead to crisis of meaning, existential suffering, and eventual demise and death, followed by some forms of symbolic after-life even if that is as simple as how our bodies are fodder for future roses, or as complex as becoming grandparents, or as indirect as sharing scholarship or information or teachings with people who carry that knowledge onward...
Thus personally I respect and admire the Sacred Traditions of all our human Ancestors of all Nations. And by looking at how we make our sense of meaning, and then respecting the metaphoric value of that meaning that is generated, rather than examining or needing to know facts or truths as definitive or carved in stone, we really begin to see how creative and important these stories are. As Aboriginal elders are known to say, 'our stories are our medicine.'
Thank you Dr Bowers, it is informed and intelligent comments like yours that make writing articles like this worthwhile. You gave a response that was intellectual and not abusive or judgemental. Clearly you are an educated person and did not need to resort to the frequently rude response articles such as this one usually attract (from all beliefs). I am very grateful.
One must look at the earliest civilazations and the use of the zodiac (pisces and virgo inparticular). To understand the rebirth of mankind. Jesus story not original.
Thanks Richard, interesting input and information.
Weather the story is the same for many who were Gods or Prophets or weather it was only real for one and the others "hijacked" it...does it really matter? We, the person we are, is God. We have the powers that God have. We must put our powers together for the love of this earth and the people on it and together - and only together as a whole unit loving together will we be able to know and experience God in it's almighty.
We are in a time of opportunity to show the word leaders who are the Satan's that are tempting us - that we will resist that temptation and all band together by opening up our 6th sense and tuning it in to the "love thy neighbor" wavelength. We have to show the evil at the top (which are very few compared to our numbers) that the Good will overcome. So which every story you believe - take what it says - the message is same - Love one Another.
Nicely said C.K. I wish others would think more like you do and follow the "love thy neighbour" wavelength also.
Www.thedivineevidence.com/jesus_similarities.html
Check the above thread please all those interested in this story and please read the whole thing. I would appreciate your comments. It would appear that a lot of the so called parallels between the various mystical traditions are not so clean cut as the internet blogs make them out to be...
Yet even if there are parallels this does not necessarily mean there is some conspiracy theory for Christianity or any other religion to 'hijack' each others stories...
Synchronicities between different spiritual traditions can point to an underlying unity which crosses boundaries from paganism to Buddhism to Christianity or any other so called religion or tradition.
Jesus Christ spoke of the unity of all things... So did Buddha and many more... But if all things are one why does everyone create their own 'camp'?
To the author of this blog thank you for your initial questions and what it has created.
Personally I am not Christian per se but I believe that Jesus Christ manifested in physical reality some of what were previously myths of the spiritual worlds. I do feel that alot of what is recorded about this figure is historically accurate although this of course is an opinion...
Many of the miracles etc carried out by JC have been done many times by Hindu and Buddhist sages etc. It only takes a small amount of research into the worlds spiritual literature to realise these acts are most likely possible and have occurred many times.
I think JC was the most significant and important catalysts in human evolution however to date... And I am not a fundamentalist Christian or any other religionist. This is simply where I am at...
To say that all of the spiritual literature and culure of humanity is some sort of delusion is in itself a delusion. It is crazy to say all of those millions of people who have had profound spiritual experiences in many different cultures are crazy...
But as JC taught it is all just about love...
To all those who would say 'prove it' when talking about the spiritual traditions can you 'prove' the existence of love? I mean really prove it or measure it like our scientific age seems to demand of everything...
Yet what is the most important force in the world?
If your answer is anything other than love I challenge you to look deeper...
Love cannot be 'proven' and neither can many of the things that are written about JC or Buddha etc. They are simply encouraging us to look deeper into our own nature...
What are we?
I hope this adds in some manner to your blog.
By the way Misty I am aware that my last post may be slightly out of context or grammatically not brilliant. I am posting from an IPhone and I can't go back to read over what I write so aplogies in advance for the erratic style of writing...
Thanks for your posts Dave, they definitely add a lot to this hub and give further 'food for thought'.
Misty, I love your honesty to your hubs. I am a fan!
I am a Christian. I have read about the other comparisons. It is great conversation peices. It merely seems the significant impact that Christ has had over a course of two thousand years is mind boggling. He has help produce the ALL-TIME best selling book to ever exist. The MILLIONS and MILLIONS of personal testamonies that has changed the lives of so many, due to this one man.
This is all accomplished via faith.
I am not here to dispute, just to comment, with a few random thoughts.
:)
Hi CMerritt, thanks so much for commenting here. Your thoughts and comments are always welcome, and the nice thing is that you gave your thoughts on this subject without getting nasty or aggressive like many former commenters did in the early days on this hub. I always welcome that kind of input, and you did make valid points.
MistyHorizon2003, re. Christ’s Life Story, or was it? You decide. I would like to offer an explanation to consider that the primary source of all the helpful wisdom credited to the various people, even venerable people, comes from the Great I AM, the Creator of man.
It is taught in The LDS church that this is the last DISPENSATION of the Gospel. There were other dispensations, even from the days of ADAM. Each dispensation was and is taught the “Plan of Salvation”, and the Messiah, an integral part of that Plan, was prophesied about from the figurative DAY ONE. When we hear of the prophesies of Jesus Christ, we may also certainly hear what He has done and will do, and why He must do what He has been entrusted to do.
Jesus in the flesh, during His mortality and earthly ministry, revealed another dispensation of the Gospel (seems like things got a little out of whack since the previous one; Jesus straightened all that out -- again).
In these Latter-days, the Prophet Joseph Smith was entrusted by God to bring forth this final dispensation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Throughout, the “Plan of Salvation” taught that a Messiah was a necessary and fundamental part of the Redemption of man, as well as many “Saving” principles to live by, for our benefit.
Misty, each time some information is passed, something will get messed up; slowly, but surely, the veracity of the original message is lost, or changed, and thus it becomes either false, incomprehensible, or incomplete. I say this however with an important qualifier: when people do not have a true prophet of God to lead them, and where meticulous records are not scrupulously kept, this “messed up” eventuality always happens -- without question. That in itself explains why the many sages of different cultures and times do not hold fast to, or “reason” that a Redeemer is necessary for the saving of souls.
Some of the noteworthy sages may have even received the “credit” for several “Saving” principles, either by ostensibly taking the credit themselves, or by the saving principles and wise messages being attributed to them as the initial genius and progenitor of that wisdom, even without their permission or ability to correct that bestowed credit.
I have been working on a hub which hopefully I can release soon which stresses that while there may be MANY “Saviours”, per se, many sages and healing physicians (even noble people), BUT there is only ONE Redeemer, and that is Jesus Christ -- an absolute necessity to act as our advocate to Heavenly Father.
Peace and good tidings Misty, and thanks for the opportunity to share this information. I hope it will be considered by as many as have read your thought-provoking and useful-to-consider hub.
Was researching for a works cited page when I came across this in the searching, I'm really moved that you are so open and just want answers and you're not looking for a debate about opinion but facts. I know that this was started a long while back, but I know that it takes a lot for a persons view to change. And as you have not posted otherwise, I assume you have not come to the conclusion in this matter. I am not by any means a theologian or some a person of great knowledge... but I can post things that I have come across that have been eye-opening to me. I am a believer in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and I have to say that all of your thoughts posted on this hub are valid questions... and I am very glad to remember in scripture ... at least one prophet I know for certain... but I think a few others as well... that questioned God. And God answered them. So raising questions is a good thing as long as you are sincerely searching for truth and I know you are. So what I have to offer isn't much... like I said, I'm not a great learned person but what I have to offer, I will.
As I've read by other writers, Jesus in fact was not born in December at all but sometime.... in the early fall I think. so that leads to the question, why on earth does anyone celebrate christmas then as jesus birthday? ... there's lots of views on that and that's not EXACTLY what I want to expound on (whether christmas should be a christian holiday or not)but rather as to the significance of December 25th and there is a DVD on that with research done and it is called the star of bethlehem with the website (www.bethlehemstar.net/) I found it very it very interesting and informative. Again... I don't have the tools to look this all up on my own... and someone may have things to say against this, but it's what I've seen and I hope perhaps it can answer questions or lead to answered questions.
My answer D for you would be that Jesus is God. and that the devil is an expert deceiver... able to deceive even the ones who are christians if they don't have a mind to seek truth and just follow the crowd.
again... I've seen that you have received this answer before and I know that this answer does not provide facts in itself at all. It leads to only questions... but I pray that your heart to look for truth will lead you to truth.
I really don't want to seem like I'm preaching... I hope I don't come across seeming like that... but I really do hope that God reveals himself to you like your friend Mike from Ireland said... and I'll be with him praying that God really comes straight to your heart and speaks to you in a way that you just can't deny it's from Him. I really hate how the devil works to deceive us... and how subtle he is... oops... I'm going off again. Sorry also about the frequent use of periods... or ellipsis, it's how I talk (with frequent pauses) and it transfers over in the writing.
Thanks for reading!
Continue searching for truth and don't stop until you see it. Truth really is worth seeking after. the only other video I saw that extremely touched my life was a video that is based off this website (www.morethandreams.org/)
that's about it. Hope that the info I gave was informative and gives answers for you and that you have time to read it. If I ever have time I'll try to do independent research on all these things.
Like, Mike said, my relationship with God is just that. I don't appreciate religion because it is dead. I wanted Life. I got life. I've had loads of questions... and I asked them. And my God has answered every question I've posed Him... and it's all been good answers for me...
ok... really ending now... thanks again for reading
T
Thanks so much for taking the time to write this wonderful comment T. It must have taken you a long time, and you put considerable thought into every word of it. Up to now I have never received the direct contact from God that Mike prayed for on my behalf, but I am never going to rule out the possibility it might yet happen. Like I may have said before, I do believe in Christ, and I do believe in a God, it is the Bible I have a problem with, and what is and isn't true. I still question whether Jesus was actually the 'Son of God' or if he was just a great prophet for instance.
One thing is for sure, I will get all the answers when I die, which may be why I have no real fear of death, only the manner in which it happens.
Thanks again for your wonderful comment.
thank you for this is useful information.its great to know that not all of us are brian washed.
Thank you Greg, I am glad you found this useful :)
Two years later, the topic is still active. Perhaps because it's so interesting and full of open minded humans with the same curiosity. I've bookmarked this page because I want to continue reading the comments (just finished the shades vs viral lol). Great post Misty, not only do you share your work with us, you also become a part of it.
Thank you nakedidea, this hub certainly drew some amazing comments, both agreeing and disagreeing with its content. The shades vs vial section of comments was amazing, and shades is an absolute genius with words. I am sure many were riveted by the exchange. I am very glad you feel this was worth bookmarking :)
mmm. all life is by nature,growing ,changing .to think that one single deity rules over us, at their whim or desigin is the stuff off sci fi . . i have no dought that jesus lived as did his similie . so many stories of simila tales must be grounded in truth . but in the truth of superstitious peoples. what they cannot explian they would of made up .
Thanks for your input and feedback Gogges :)
Evangelists should educate themselves on the origins of their literal interpretations.
Thanks for adding the link peanutroaster.
Your assumption that any of these legends pre-date Christianity is where this hub errs. The Bible teaches that Christ was taught from the beginning of time beginning with Adam. If that is true, it is easy to see how these other legends could be build around the many prophecies of Christ.
Interesting theory ctbrown, although I believe that most people accept the old testament is too flawed to be true, e.g. problem with too small a gene pool to be viable with just Adam and Eve, where do dinosaurs fit in to the plan, stone age man etc etc. Essentially it seems most likely the old testament is, at best, a legend itself that happened to be included in the Bible, and bearing in mind when the Bible was written down, the legends within this hub would pre-date it.
Actually to be quite honest God's people actually came from Egypt if you think about it, around Moses time frame, but if you look back even before then you have to look even beyond the books of the bible and look atthe books of jubilee and enoch to reflect as to why there are so many gods and goddesses out there. I myself contemplated this subject weeks ago until someone told me to read the book of enoch, about the fallen angels and about the nemphillium. very interesting stuff.
Interesting comment DJ and thanks for posting it. I can't say I am familiar with the books of of jubilee and enoch, but I would be interested to know more about the fallen angels and the nemphillium who I have heard of.
I think some of your research information needs to be corrected, BUDHA did not have the same life experience of JESUS, although he was a messenger of G_D. All G_D messengers come at a time when the world is in a state of spiritual and moral decline. As a result of this messengers are sent. The messengers sent by G_D, are KRISHNA, ABRAHAM, BUDHA, ZOROASTER, MOSES, JESUS, MUHAMMED, BAB, BAHAULLAH. From these teachings man made religion, and in the name of JESUS CHRIST corrupted the teachings of all the other messengers for they have made JESUS G_D. There is but one G_D, one Religion, and one race for all the messengers preach their is one G_D. Man created religion. Once we practice the teachings faithfully of the teachings of these messengers we are united with the Universal creator but to worship any of the messengers as being G_D is worshiping idols the messengers bring new light but we are to worship only that which we cannot see for our mind cannot conceive the creator, look at the signs around you the moon the stars, the sun and the other planets no man can create such things. The messengers who comes after the one before him has to correct the teachings of the former this is why they are persecuted because on each arrival man has already deviated from the truth with their man made religions.
THY WILL BE DONE.
Thanks for sharing your opinions Tennerson. I am guessing many will not agree with you, but that is what happens with religion as we all know. Personally I am a Pagan by faith, and whilst I do believe there was a Christ and he did exist, I do not follow most of what is in the Bible because Christ didn't write a word of it. I do however naturally have a Pagan affinity with the moon, the stars, the sun, the universe, the trees, the animals etc etc. To me God is all around us, and it is not my place to say which stories are the true ones, or which deity (if any) experienced these legends, because we simply cannot ever know for sure until we are dead!
Good hub.
misty,
have you done any research about Islam (specifically Ithna Ashari, Imamiyyah Shi'a)? It is interesting that the Qur'an says things differently from the Bible and hasn't been proven wrong in it's deviance of Christian thought.
I'm a convert from Protestantism to Shi'a Islam, I'm an open-minded individual who favours unbiased research.
Feel free to email me on dalamriki@gmail.com
peace
Glad you enjoyed this Dawud, I confess I haven't researched 'Ithna Ashari Imamiyyah Shi'a' but it does sound interesting from what you describe. Right now I am busy on many other projects, so looking into this further or engaging in email exchanges could be rather difficult for me. I wrote this article several years ago now, and since then have written on many subjects that capture my interest, trouble is there are only so many hours in the day and writing on religious topics does cause problems as you can probably guess if you read the early comments made on this article. Gets all very stressful, so I tend to avoid it now.
Thanks for your feedback again, perhaps you could look into writing an article or two here on the subject. I have a link to where you can join Hubpages on my Profile Page, and you would probably find your chosen topic attracted a lot of views and debate, plus you could earn some income from your writing in the process if you write enough material.
Peace to you too :)
Very interesting reading. I had heard about similiar Jesus stories that predated Christ, but I didn't realize that there were so many.
Still, it's hard to believe that Christ is possibly just a myth. There seems to be so much evidence that he existed, and historically it really wasn't that long ago.
Personally, I believe no one is meant to find out the truth until that final heartbeat.
Hi Ron, I err towards believing he did exist, my doubt is more as to if he was 'the son of God' or just a prophet. I certainly pay little attention to what is in the Bible in terms of stories.
I agree that we will most likely only ever find out the truth after our final heartbeat.
Thanks for your thoughts on this :)
I'm 68 and have struggled with religion all my life. I have an open mind on the subject; I guess that makes me agnostic.
I have been turned off by Christians in recent year. I think it's their arrogance and complete lack of an open mind. Their answers to my questions are always, "You must have faith or it's God's will"
During the start of the Iraq war, when President Bush claimed that God had directed him to go to war. I couldn't believe it when the country swallowed it--are we living in the "Twilight Zone" I thought.
Personally, I agree with George Carlin, when he said: "You'll have the same success rate whether you pray to God or the Easter Bunny."
Hi again Ron, you are on the 'same page as me' on this one in many ways, especially in the way Christians are so closed minded to other points of view. I liked your 'Twilight Zone' comparison too, so true, and all too often.
I fall into more of the Pagan side of beliefs, as in, look after the planet and all that resides on it and you won't go far wrong. After all, don't we have a duty to look after it as we are only 'borrowing it' at best, and our actions directly impact on all the other 'tenants' that reside on it too? If there is a God, then surely that is what he would want us to do. Like you said earlier, only after the last heartbeat will we know for sure!
Loved your George Carlin quote too :)
Real Christians study the word of God and know the truth. Who is it going to hurt most if someone is wrong? Satan has a counterfeit for everything. He will send an anti-Christ soon claiming to be Christ. Christians won't be here for that though, but it is good to let everyone know because at that time after the Church is gone there will be no more Age of Grace and ones left will have no Jesus to turn to anymore so you had better go to Him now while you can. His arms are open. Now.
Thanks for sharing your personal beliefs here Pollyannalana. I will respectfully have to agree to disagree.
Misty,
I just want to add that I enjoyed your HUB. Although, I'm not sure what a HUB is, I don't keep up with the latest technology ... blog, facebook, twitter etc.
I enjoyed your comments and many of your responders. I thought the person who said that choice of religion was more an accident of geography than anything else, really hit it on the nose.
Like I said I'm agnostic. No religion seems to have it right, in my mind. Maybe they all have a very small piece of the puzzle.
I'm sure when the time comes for everyone to move on. They will be surprised and say:"It's totally different than I ever expected, but yet it makes perfect sense."
I can't escape the feeling that some sort of judgement awaits all of us. Otherwise, what was the purpose?
I don't think it will be heaven or hell. Heaven to me won't be sitting in a church all day and worshiping a god. That has always bothered me --Jesus demanding to be worshiped. This would be such a loathsome quality for a human.
Heaven to me would be having your health and being on a vacation all the time. Hell would be doing community service in heaven until worthy of joining.
Why couldn't we have an afterlife without a god? Maybe our next life still doesn't give us the answers? Maybe we are meant to gradually fill in the universe a life at a time with an immortal soul?
I hope you will follow up this subject or a related topic. It is so ironic that all the billions of people on this earth argue and kill over an opinion on god. And without dying no one can prove who's right, if anyone is.
It just seems like someone from a far is enjoying this whole scenario.
I really do like the way you think Rob, (oh and by the way, a Hub is the same as an article, only difference being that it is written and published on the Hubpages website, hope this helps).
By the way, I did write another hub on a similar subject and that was about whether the Pre-Trib Rapture is myth or fact. The link to that article if you are interested in reading it is: http://mistyhorizon2003.hubpages.com/hub/The-Raptu
I have done a few others too, and I will add them to a links section at the end of the hub above :)
Just_Rodney Level 3 Commenter 3 years ago
Misty, great hub and it amazing that so many parallel 'son of god' or 'saviours' have existed and worshipped before Christ, the parallels all fit the recorded words as well.